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This is an important point. Our thoughts are actually events that take place in nature. Even if you imagine them to be purely biochemical processes, this would still be the case.

People tend to act like individuals (and humans as a group) exist outside of nature somehow. We tend to talk about the Universe as something we can observe from the outside without affecting it. This is akin to the idea that a National Geographic team can hide in the bush and film a group of monkeys without them being aware they are being observed. The monkeys may, in fact, behave in basically the same way they would otherwise... but there is no way to know this, because we can't observe them when we are not observing them.

The discussion we are having (including the tangents) rests upon some semantic terminology. This is to be expected in such discussions. However, there is no way to see eye to eye on these issues without some consensus about what the terms we are using mean.

What is spiritual?

What is sacred?

What existence are we talking about?

Infinity, eternity, linear time, non-linear time... these are all concepts that have different meanings to different folk.

I would say that if we are limiting this talk to the 4D known universe, we are thinking too small. The cutting edge of physics talks about multiverses where each universe has different laws of nature. It discusses 10 or 11 dimensions where infinite numbers of parallel universes exist simultaneously. Google the Many Worlds Interpretation and then ask yourself if this theory doesn't insist that everything we could possibly imagine exists somewhere. Note, AlbertKLloyd, that this is not saying that these things exist because we imagine them... this is not placing ourselves at the center of the universe as you have said, metaphorically speaking.

Because... of course, in an infinite space... all points are the center. The fact that the Universe appears equally large in every direction with the same background cosmic radiation... and moving away from us at the same rate... does kind of place us in the center to some degree. No more than any other place, perhaps, but the center nonetheless.

<blockquote data-quote="Hyperspace Fool" data-source="post: 3472836" data-attributes="member: 10791">This is an important point.&nbsp; Our thoughts are actually events that take place in nature.&nbsp; Even if you imagine them to be purely biochemical processes, this would still be the case.People tend to act like individuals (and humans as a group) exist outside of nature somehow.&nbsp; We tend to talk about the Universe as something we can observe from the outside without affecting it.&nbsp; This is akin to the idea that a National Geographic team can hide in the bush and film a group of monkeys without them being aware they are being observed.&nbsp; The monkeys may, in fact, behave in basically the same way they would otherwise... but there is no way to know this, because we can&#039;t observe them when we are not observing them.The discussion we are having (including the tangents) rests upon some semantic terminology.&nbsp; This is to be expected in such discussions.&nbsp; However, there is no way to see eye to eye on these issues without some consensus about what the terms we are using mean.&nbsp; What is spiritual?What is sacred?What existence are we talking about?Infinity, eternity, linear time, non-linear time... these are all concepts that have different meanings to different folk.I would say that if we are limiting this talk to the 4D known universe, we are thinking too small.&nbsp; The cutting edge of physics talks about multiverses where each universe has different laws of nature.&nbsp; It discusses 10 or 11 dimensions where infinite numbers of parallel universes exist simultaneously.&nbsp; Google the Many Worlds Interpretation and then ask yourself if this theory doesn&#039;t insist that everything we could possibly imagine exists somewhere.&nbsp; Note, AlbertKLloyd, that this is not saying that these things exist because we imagine them... this is not placing ourselves at the center of the universe as you have said, metaphorically speaking. Because... of course, in an infinite space... all points are the center.&nbsp; The fact that the Universe appears equally large in every direction with the same background cosmic radiation... and moving away from us at the same rate... does kind of place us in the center to some degree.&nbsp; No more than any other place, perhaps, but the center nonetheless.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hyperspace Fool, post: 3472836, member: 10791"] This is an important point. Our thoughts are actually events that take place in nature. Even if you imagine them to be purely biochemical processes, this would still be the case. People tend to act like individuals (and humans as a group) exist outside of nature somehow. We tend to talk about the Universe as something we can observe from the outside without affecting it. This is akin to the idea that a National Geographic team can hide in the bush and film a group of monkeys without them being aware they are being observed. The monkeys may, in fact, behave in basically the same way they would otherwise... but there is no way to know this, because we can't observe them when we are not observing them. The discussion we are having (including the tangents) rests upon some semantic terminology. This is to be expected in such discussions. However, there is no way to see eye to eye on these issues without some consensus about what the terms we are using mean. What is [b]spiritual[/b]? What is [b]sacred[/b]? What [b]existence[/b] are we talking about? [b]Infinity[/b], [b]eternity[/b], [b]linear time[/b], [b]non-linear time[/b]... these are all concepts that have different meanings to different folk. I would say that if we are limiting this talk to the 4D known universe, we are thinking too small. The cutting edge of physics talks about multiverses where each universe has different laws of nature. It discusses 10 or 11 dimensions where infinite numbers of parallel universes exist simultaneously. Google the Many Worlds Interpretation and then ask yourself if this theory doesn't insist that everything we could possibly imagine exists somewhere. Note, AlbertKLloyd, that this is not saying that these things exist [i]because[/i] we imagine them... this is not placing ourselves at the center of the universe as you have said, metaphorically speaking. Because... of course, in an infinite space... all points are the center. The fact that the Universe appears equally large in every direction with the same background cosmic radiation... and moving away from us at the same rate... does kind of place us in the center to some degree. No more than any other place, perhaps, but the center nonetheless. [/QUOTE]