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2 types of thoughts when meditating

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3rdI

3rdI

veni, vidi, spici
I have recently started to meditate on a daily basis. I sit early in the morning, and then again just before i go to sleep, each sitting is for 20 minutes.

Although my practice is only a few weeks old i can feel my progress coming on. I sit in the dark, cross legged on a pillow and concentrate on my breath.

When i first started i would get no where near a quiet mind, i was always thinking about random things and had a near constant internal dialogue. as the days have passed this dialoague has begun to slow down, i no longer think things like "this is pointless what are you doing" or "man, 20 mins is a long time, i hope ive nearly finished".

(i found these thoughts a little odd as i had decided to start the practice so why would i think things like this)

Anyway, i am now at the point where the 20 mins passes quite quickly and i dont think about how long i have been sat for, i just sit, feeling my breath flowing in and out, theres even been a few brief moments when the thoughts have momentarily quietened and i have been properly mindfull of just my breathing, these moments are very brief as i end up thinking hey i did it, then D'oh, back to thinking.

Last night i had finished my practice and i lay down to sleep, i then experienced a strange happening. I had my spoken voice in my head, like when i normally think about things, this voice is self generated, i was talking to myself, i am the origionator of this internal dialog, nothing unusual there. But as this voice quietened i could hear or feel or sense a much quieter dialogue in the background of my mind. It was as if they were secondary thoughts that were poping into my mind, they didnt seem self generated like my normal internal dialogue.

They was nothing strange about these thoughts, no "kill them all" crazy voices, just some normal thoughts that felt as if they were being picked up from somewhere else, from an external place. All i could think of was the "your brain is a receiver" type theory. I was quite baffled. It was as if they have always been there but my mind was normally to busy and load and chaotic to notice them.

I know theres alot of folk in the community that do alot of meditating and i was wondering if anyone has had this or does anyone know what it is?

or should i start saving for a white coat with long arms:wink:

cheers
 
I agree with House. As reference points for the mind are lost, things get weird. Relax and do what feels right. When you're working on something practical and these things happen, which they probably will eventually, just relax and put your focus on the practical action your accomplishing.
 
The Soto practice of 'just sitting' would recommend to simply refocus again on your breathing, letting go of any gaining or loosing ideas. It seems quieter layers come up, but they too dissipate when they are seen but let go.
 
Every process can be seen as necessary to be and create who you want to be.
Therefore every tought serves its purpose as best as it can.
 
Thanks everyone, I guess I can take the coat back:wink:

I will persist with my practise and see how far I can delve into it, its quite exciting to be breaking new grounds of my consciousness.

Cheers.
 
IMO the difference you notice is most easily described as becoming more sensitive to your thoughts at a earlier stage--as they are generated--so they seem "quieter."

The main purpose of that kind of mindfulness exercise is to help you learn to let go of your thoughts, and thereby quiet the mind, so you can begin to perceive more than mere thoughts. I think the method most people arrive at is to work more at not CLINGING to the thoughts--not being carried away in following them, and then following the train of thoughts, etc., until you have lost all mindfulness of your breath.

So, when thoughts come you should just acknowledge "Oh, I'm having thoughts" but otherwise "detach yourself" from them and any "importance" you might think they have, and go on with perceiving the breath. After awhile, you get the "trick": thoughts have only the control you GIVE them (er, whoever, "you" are). If, as they arise, you simply allow them to pass away, soon they won't come at all. It's not "effort" that one makes, it's a decision--simply, a decision to drop interest in thoughts and thinking.

One important intellectual conclusion one can draw from this exercise--when you learn to simply allow your thoughts to drop away--is that YOU ARE NOT YOUR THOUGHTS! An interesting thing that most people, instinctively, don't realize or acknowledge.
 
SWIMfriend said:
IMO the difference you notice is most easily described as becoming more sensitive to your thoughts at a earlier stage--as they are generated--so they seem "quieter."

The main purpose of that kind of mindfulness exercise is to help you learn to let go of your thoughts, and thereby quiet the mind, so you can begin to perceive more than mere thoughts. I think the method most people arrive at is to work more at not CLINGING to the thoughts--not being carried away in following them, and then following the train of thoughts, etc., until you have lost all mindfulness of your breath.

So, when thoughts come you should just acknowledge "Oh, I'm having thoughts" but otherwise "detach yourself" from them and any "importance" you might think they have, and go on with perceiving the breath. After awhile, you get the "trick": thoughts have only the control you GIVE them (er, whoever, "you" are). If, as they arise, you simply allow them to pass away, soon they won't come at all. It's not "effort" that one makes, it's a decision--simply, a decision to drop interest in thoughts and thinking.

One important intellectual conclusion one can draw from this exercise--when you learn to simply allow your thoughts to drop away--is that YOU ARE NOT YOUR THOUGHTS! An interesting thing that most people, instinctively, don't realize or acknowledge.
Click to expand...

well said.

You will get very adept at differentiating your subconscious mind which is totally out of your control (aka not you) and your conscious mind. The divisions are actually quite a bit more subtle, but no need to label everything at this stage.

Breath awareness is OK...but it's not the full story. Become aware of every sensation that arises..and note that it does indeed pass away as well. Use a simple noting technique in the beginning. If you hear a sound mentally say, "hearing". If you catch yourself in a though mentally say "thinking". Feel an itch note "itching". Try to catch every single sensation that arises in your reality (There are an infinite stream of them). Were does the source of your breath begin? Can you really observe your breath without being involved with it?

This form of meditation is known as vipassanne meditation. I have not found anything that leads to a still mind faster than rapid fire noting. What it does is build presence and concentration. It forces you to reamin very aware and in the now. When you nail this you will notice that your subconscious mind just stops. It has no chance to get anything past your awareness so it stops trying. This is the moment that meditation really begins...

You should literally be able to become precisely aware of at least 20 sensation per second. This won't happen until you are steady enough to drop the noting and just be present though. This is the essence of mindfulness meditation. this practice is the one that leads to control over the mind...or equanimity with the minds. This practice will spill over into ever facet of your life.
 
Cheers Joedirt & SWIMfriend

I don't really have any knowledge of meditation but I didn't want to get bogged down in the details, there is so much info on different styles of meditation that I decided that starting with trying to quieten my mind was as good a place to start as any.

I think I will keep doing what I am doing for at least a few months then start to integrate some your points, Joe.

Thanks again, this has been really usefull
 
I've noticed this too, but mostly if I meditate when I'm tired. It almost sounds like I'm listening to a TV with random, nonsensical voices that seem "external". I assumed it was either my subconscious or that maybe I was receiving thought "noise" from other people as I turned down the inner noise of my own ego-thoughts.

joedirt said:
Breath awareness is OK...but it's not the full story. Become aware of every sensation that arises..and note that it does indeed pass away as well. Use a simple noting technique in the beginning. If you hear a sound mentally say, "hearing". If you catch yourself in a though mentally say "thinking". Feel an itch note "itching". Try to catch every single sensation that arises in your reality (There are an infinite stream of them). Were does the source of your breath begin? Can you really observe your breath without being involved with it?

This form of meditation is known as vipassanne meditation. I have not found anything that leads to a still mind faster than rapid fire noting. What it does is build presence and concentration. It forces you to reamin very aware and in the now. When you nail this you will notice that your subconscious mind just stops. It has no chance to get anything past your awareness so it stops trying. This is the moment that meditation really begins
Click to expand...

Although I agree that Vipassana/Insight meditation is very important, I've always heard that for beginners, it is important to develop the basics first- learning to focus attention on a single point as in Concentrative/Tranquility/Samatha meditation (using the breath, candle flame, spot on the wall, mantra, sound, etc.)
 
SpartanII said:
I've noticed this too, but mostly if I meditate when I'm tired. It almost sounds like I'm listening to a TV with random, nonsensical voices that seem "external". I assumed it was either my subconscious or that maybe I was receiving thought "noise" from other people as I turned down the inner noise of my own ego-thoughts.
Click to expand...

That pretty much sums it up, it was strange but i liked it, its nice to discover something inside yourself that has always been there but you have not been in a position to notice before.

SpartanII said:
Although I agree that Vipassana/Insight meditation is very important, I've always heard that for beginners, it is important to develop the basics first- learning to focus attention on a single point as in Concentrative/Tranquility meditation (using the breath, candle flame, spot on the wall, mantra, sound, etc.)
Click to expand...

I think i read this on the Nexus somewhere and thats why i chose to take the direction i have, i thought i had to start somewhere and this seemed like a good place.

On a side note, my dreams have gone haywire since i started my practice. A few times i have woken up at 3/4am and decided to sit for 20 mins, when i lay down to sleep again i entered into the craziest dreams, not lucid but very real and detailed with what seemed like ongoing plot lines.

im loving my practise more and more by the day, I have already got in 2 sittings today, and its only lunch time:d .
 
Good to hear you are going well with your meditation! I get the same thing too I think SWIMfriend is spot on with what it is.

I also encounter two distinct types of thoughts when I meditate. There are main thoughts, which are loud and inevitably drag me along with them and I will get completely distracted. And there are sub thoughts, which are like the beginnings of main thoughts, they are quieter and will arise when I am focusing but I can cut them off easier.

When I first started I had a lot more main thoughts but now I'm mostly dealing with fending off sub thoughts with the occasional main ones. Glad you are liking it as well! I started out going oh no it's pretty long, but now the time feels short and I'm starting to enjoy it more.

Regarding dreams I meditated together with a friend and strangely enough that night we both had similar dreams of the type you described which my friend rarely gets.
 
hello rainbow-dragon,

im getting quite a good division of the 2 thoughts now, and im starting to be able to quieten the loud voice for a good number of breaths, but that quiet voice is a nightmare, it wont shut up:x

it shortly quietens for maybe a breath or 2, if im lucky, but its always quick to return. But then again im only 45 days into my practice so ive got maybe another 40/50 years to work on it. i did find a little trick last night that seemed to help quieten both voices so i will keep trying that to see if it helps.

How long have you been sitting for? and for what sort of times?
 
Hi 3rdI, same here, I've been having a lot of trouble with the quiet voice. It always tries to say something like "focus on your breathing (yeah i know)" "it's working (well now it's not)" or something else completely unrelated and it pops up every few seconds. I guess the main thing is to be aware of it and keep shutting it off/focusing at every opportunity. Some days are better than others and recently I found I've been a bit worse than usual but perseverance is important. I still feel calmer regardless. It's great to be starting now too, even in a years time there will be a lot of progress!

One really interesting thing that's come along with my meditating is seeing colours/visions. Sometimes only colours that come in pulses, usually green and pink (from what was originally a background of black) and I've sometimes been seeing an eye in the background. It started off in faint detail and only appears toward the end of the session, but later on I've seen the detail of the iris and eyelashes and it will blink as the colours pulse. I focus on this when it happens and I find it's easy to barely have any thoughts.

I started last month with 5 minutes a day and I've just completed a month of 10 minutes a day which I think I'll continue that amount of time next month.
 
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