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I know conversations about religion tend to go round in circles and often become heated. I am also aware that this is your introduction thread, so I don't want to harp on about religious grievances and potentially alienate you from a great forum or make you feel like you are being bombarded about your religious beliefs as soon as you have came here. As such this will be my last post here unless you reply with a question.

So, with the pleasantries aside, lol... your post that I've quoted constitutes a perfect example of what I was referring to as "mental gymnastics". Lets take just one quote from the bible, instead of a massive list...

"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying "Let us go serve other gods," unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or from far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God." (Deuteronomy 13;7-11)

This, to me, is plain and simple. It is what it is. It is very clear, very direct and very specific. I do not understand for one second how someone can change this text into something spiritual and profound (feel free to elaborate on how you read this particular passage). It says, using clear and distinct language, that if someone suggests to you that you should switch to another religion you should kill them. This passage makes perfect sense if it is intended to militantly preserve the religion. Whether or not this was the intent, it was certainly the effect. Passages like these are what were used to justify all manner of atrocities, and why shouldn't they? If someone really believes the bible is the word of god and aren't quite as mentally agile as you then why would they interpret it as anything other than what it says? More importantly why couldn't god have been clearer? Why would he wish to have his name anywhere near a book full of things which, at face value, are morally bankrupt?

Sure you can find things like "do unto others" and "love thy neighbour" but to be honest, from my reading of the bible, these type of useful moral rules of thumb are outnumbered by immoral commands... and why should "love thy neighbour" be taken literally where "kill thy neighbour" is to be taken as some kind of deep spiritual truth that transcends what it actually says?

It does seem that you pick what you like and rationalize the rest, and i use the term rationalize very loosely because I have yet to see someone actually explain what it is that they see in passages like the one I've quoted. Generally blanket statements like "it's out of context" or "it's metaphorical" are used.

You mentioned "mercilessly killing sin" as a possible interpretation of certain passages. By what stretch of thinking is it a good idea to swap the word "sin" with "your neighbour if they work on a sunday" and then hope people will switch it back instead of taking it literally? How is that useful to people's spiritual advancement?

As I said I do believe some useful things can be gleaned from religions, for example "there but for the grace of god, go I" is very profound in a certain way. It has poetic value regardless of whether there actually is a god who is gracing us. To me this is saying that we should not be quick to judge others since we could easily be in their place if our luck had been different. I don't think it takes any stretch of rational thought to read it that way, since that is basically what it says. I am all for keeping these little nuggets of wisdom... but I think it is intellectually dishonest to try and convince yourself and others that the whole bible is basically the same as that. If you choose to ignore the nasty parts of the bible then that is good, but be honest that you are choosing to ignore them... don't try to justify that which is unjustifiable.

Anyway sermon over. Welcome to the nexus :lol:

<blockquote data-quote="tony" data-source="post: 3523113" data-attributes="member: 11772">I know conversations about religion tend to go round in circles and often become heated. I am also aware that this is your introduction thread, so I don&#039;t want to harp on about religious grievances and potentially alienate you from a great forum or make you feel like you are being bombarded about your religious beliefs as soon as you have came here. As such this will be my last post here unless you reply with a question.So, with the pleasantries aside, lol... your post that I&#039;ve quoted constitutes a perfect example of what I was referring to as &quot;mental gymnastics&quot;. Lets take just one quote from the bible, instead of a massive list...&quot;If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying &quot;Let us go serve other gods,&quot; unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or from far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God.&quot; (Deuteronomy 13;7-11) This, to me, is plain and simple. It is what it is. It is very clear, very direct and very specific. I do not understand for one second how someone can change this text into something spiritual and profound (feel free to elaborate on how you read this particular passage). It says, using clear and distinct language, that if someone suggests to you that you should switch to another religion you should kill them. This passage makes perfect sense if it is intended to militantly preserve the religion. Whether or not this was the intent, it was certainly the effect. Passages like these are what were used to justify all manner of atrocities, and why shouldn&#039;t they? If someone really believes the bible is the word of god and aren&#039;t quite as mentally agile as you then why would they interpret it as anything other than what it says? More importantly why couldn&#039;t god have been clearer? Why would he wish to have his name anywhere near a book full of things which, at face value, are morally bankrupt?&nbsp; Sure you can find things like &quot;do unto others&quot; and &quot;love thy neighbour&quot; but to be honest, from my reading of the bible, these type of useful moral rules of thumb are outnumbered by immoral commands... and why should &quot;love thy neighbour&quot; be taken literally where &quot;kill thy neighbour&quot; is to be taken as some kind of deep spiritual truth that transcends what it actually says?It does seem that you pick what you like and rationalize the rest, and i use the term rationalize very loosely because I have yet to see someone actually explain what it is that they see in passages like the one I&#039;ve quoted. Generally blanket statements like &quot;it&#039;s out of context&quot; or &quot;it&#039;s metaphorical&quot; are used.You mentioned &quot;mercilessly killing sin&quot; as a possible interpretation of certain passages. By what stretch of thinking is it a good idea to swap the word &quot;sin&quot; with &quot;your neighbour if they work on a sunday&quot; and then hope people will switch it back instead of taking it literally? How is that useful to people&#039;s spiritual advancement? As I said I do believe some useful things can be gleaned from religions, for example &quot;there but for the grace of god, go I&quot; is very profound in a certain way. It has poetic value regardless of whether there actually is a god who is gracing us. To me this is saying that we should not be quick to judge others since we could easily be in their place if our luck had been different. I don&#039;t think it takes any stretch of rational thought to read it that way, since that is basically what it says. I am all for keeping these little nuggets of wisdom... but I think it is intellectually dishonest to try and convince yourself and others that the whole bible is basically the same as that. If you choose to ignore the nasty parts of the bible then that is good, but be honest that you are choosing to ignore them... don&#039;t try to justify that which is unjustifiable.Anyway sermon over. Welcome to the nexus :lol:</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tony, post: 3523113, member: 11772"] I know conversations about religion tend to go round in circles and often become heated. I am also aware that this is your introduction thread, so I don't want to harp on about religious grievances and potentially alienate you from a great forum or make you feel like you are being bombarded about your religious beliefs as soon as you have came here. As such this will be my last post here unless you reply with a question. So, with the pleasantries aside, lol... your post that I've quoted constitutes a perfect example of what I was referring to as "mental gymnastics". Lets take just one quote from the bible, instead of a massive list... [i]"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying "Let us go serve other gods," unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or from far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God." (Deuteronomy 13;7-11) [/i] This, to me, is plain and simple. It is what it is. It is very clear, very direct and very specific. I do not understand for one second how someone can change this text into something spiritual and profound (feel free to elaborate on how you read this particular passage). It says, using clear and distinct language, that if someone suggests to you that you should switch to another religion you should kill them. This passage makes perfect sense if it is intended to militantly preserve the religion. Whether or not this was the intent, it was certainly the effect. Passages like these are what were used to justify all manner of atrocities, and why shouldn't they? If someone really believes the bible is the word of god and aren't quite as mentally agile as you then why would they interpret it as anything other than what it says? More importantly why couldn't god have been clearer? Why would he wish to have his name anywhere near a book full of things which, at face value, are morally bankrupt? Sure you can find things like "do unto others" and "love thy neighbour" but to be honest, from my reading of the bible, these type of useful moral rules of thumb are outnumbered by immoral commands... and why should "love thy neighbour" be taken literally where "kill thy neighbour" is to be taken as some kind of deep spiritual truth that transcends what it actually [i]says[/i]? It does seem that you pick what you like and rationalize the rest, and i use the term rationalize very loosely because I have yet to see someone actually explain what it is that they see in passages like the one I've quoted. Generally blanket statements like "it's out of context" or "it's metaphorical" are used. You mentioned "mercilessly killing sin" as a possible interpretation of certain passages. By what stretch of thinking is it a good idea to swap the word "sin" with "your neighbour if they work on a sunday" and then hope people will switch it back instead of taking it literally? How is that useful to people's spiritual advancement? As I said I do believe some useful things can be gleaned from religions, for example "there but for the grace of god, go I" is very profound in a certain way. It has poetic value regardless of whether there actually is a god who is gracing us. To me this is saying that we should not be quick to judge others since we could easily be in their place if our luck had been different. I don't think it takes any stretch of rational thought to read it that way, since that is basically what it says. I am all for keeping these little nuggets of wisdom... but I think it is intellectually dishonest to try and convince yourself and others that the whole bible is basically the same as that. If you choose to ignore the nasty parts of the bible then that is good, but be honest that you are choosing to ignore them... don't try to justify that which is unjustifiable. Anyway sermon over. Welcome to the nexus :lol: [/QUOTE]