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A conversation I had, LONG!

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quiksilver98

quiksilver98

Mike Tripporty
Here is a conversation I had, feel free to express your opinons, its a long read! im NN-DMT




cooKiEz is maGz: yes spirituality is fine by all means
cooKiEz is maGz: it's when it's not just observed as SPIRITUALITY
NN-DMT: its about balance between materialism and spirituality'
cooKiEz is maGz: and used in real world politics
NN-DMT: without materialism u cant survive, without spirituality u become beligerant and dumbfounded and consumed
cooKiEz is maGz: materialism is what we should use to govern ourselves and dictate our lives, spirituality is for those who need more meaning than what they can find in their everyday lives
cooKiEz is maGz: i personally can find plenty of meaning in my life without being spritual
NN-DMT: yes but its about balance between the two,
NN-DMT: everyone needs spirituliaty as do they materialism
cooKiEz is maGz: no, not really
cooKiEz is maGz: spirituality is as necessary in todays world as alchemy is today
cooKiEz is maGz: to be blunt
cooKiEz is maGz: :-\
cooKiEz is maGz: we've passed that stage in humanity
cooKiEz is maGz: just like we've passed the days of using swords
NN-DMT: over abundance of materialism is killing ht eplanet
cooKiEz is maGz: no
cooKiEz is maGz: you're taking materialism completely incorrect
cooKiEz is maGz: materialism is teaching us how to use and survive as humans in the world we exist in
cooKiEz is maGz: that does not destroy us or anything around us
cooKiEz is maGz: we've made mistakes that we need to rectify
cooKiEz is maGz: clean energy for one
NN-DMT: k yes we had different perception of materialism
cooKiEz is maGz: materialism is a natural perception based on observation of the physical world using our senses alone
cooKiEz is maGz: it is pure interpretation of everything we can see, touch and experiment on
NN-DMT: my perception si the the everyday consumer who is copletely beligerant to the earth and what we as humans are doing and only care about themselves, there phones, makeup, tv, car gadgets
NN-DMT: spirituality give us insight as to how to conduct ourself in the material world
cooKiEz is maGz: not always
cooKiEz is maGz: think about it like this
cooKiEz is maGz: if i were to say that the entire world is all that it is
cooKiEz is maGz: and that my decisions have an effect on humanity
cooKiEz is maGz: in it's history and discourse
cooKiEz is maGz: that is what i were to believe
cooKiEz is maGz: would i choose to act for the benefits of us or not?
cooKiEz is maGz: how would i like to be a part of history, what is the good i can accomplish in my time
NN-DMT: Qbut the insight u gain based on that comes from spirits
NN-DMT: spirit world
NN-DMT: we coexist in different realms
cooKiEz is maGz: no no no
cooKiEz is maGz: no no no no no
cooKiEz is maGz: you're a machine developed from the material world more capable than the computer in front of you
cooKiEz is maGz: don't discredit yourself!
NN-DMT: how do u explain telekinesis and telepathy and visions experiences by more than one person
cooKiEz is maGz: how do you explain the big bang?
NN-DMT: i dont i blieve thqat there is a creater, based ont eh logic that for something to be there must be a creator
cooKiEz is maGz: look
cooKiEz is maGz: whati 'm trying to get at
cooKiEz is maGz: is THERE ARE CONFUSING THINGS IN THIS UNIVERSE
cooKiEz is maGz: we must LOOK for the answer
cooKiEz is maGz: USE the machine you were granted!
NN-DMT: yes but we msut also venture outside ourselves to gain the answer, leave our body and explore the universe, our 5 physical senses can only pickup certain frequencies
NN-DMT: u must got to places where u have unlimited senses
cooKiEz is maGz: there AREN'T MORE SENSES
NN-DMT: of course there are, not int he material body but int he luight body there is
cooKiEz is maGz: can't you imagine that all of your senses are a collective?
NN-DMT: light
cooKiEz is maGz: the light body?
NN-DMT: why would there only be 5
cooKiEz is maGz: right, now can you find it?
NN-DMT: that pertained to the 3d world
cooKiEz is maGz: show me in space where it is
cooKiEz is maGz: show me a system for communication between the two
cooKiEz is maGz: stop discrediting your very very powerful mind
NN-DMT: i have to disembark form my body to do so, that means drumming, dmt, danding, meditation
cooKiEz is maGz: it's VERY powerful
cooKiEz is maGz: you are the BEST computer in the world
cooKiEz is maGz: and you choose to fill your mind with the unreal
cooKiEz is maGz: the imaginary
cooKiEz is maGz: the things that don't have concept
cooKiEz is maGz: without concept you are nothing, you can't imagine death
cooKiEz is maGz: you can't!
cooKiEz is maGz: you can imagine the moment before
cooKiEz is maGz: but you can not imagine death
cooKiEz is maGz: so stop trying
NN-DMT: but every description u ahve now is based on the unreal, everything EVER invented was based on imagination
NN-DMT: when someone dies there body gets lighter
cooKiEz is maGz: what have i said was unreal?
cooKiEz is maGz: i can test everything i say
NN-DMT: based on one percepetion but not based on perception biased the other way
NN-DMT: shamans can test everything they dfo aswell but physical cant test quantum and quantum cant test physical
cooKiEz is maGz: you're perception doesn't have ANY PROOF
NN-DMT: based on ur perception
cooKiEz is maGz: right, my perception that is concrete says your perception has no grounds because it ISN'T CONCRETE
NN-DMT: but i do ive experienced telpathy, ive experienced other realms that i journeyed with my friend without even saying a word, we came back and recolelcted our experiences and we were actually beside each other int he spirit world
cooKiEz is maGz: i've experienced many crazy things but they're not more than your mind and this universe can explain dmt
NN-DMT: my perception is ooncrete from my side and ur isnt
cooKiEz is maGz: this universe is this universe
cooKiEz is maGz: your spirituality is your understanding of this universe abstracted, but there is nothing supernatural here
NN-DMT: but ur saying unreal is unreal
cooKiEz is maGz: and you're saying unreal is capable of being perceived by the real :)
cooKiEz is maGz: that doesn't make sense dmt
NN-DMT: so u dont believe in spirits and ghosts?
cooKiEz is maGz: no, because i live in the real world, not the unreal world
cooKiEz is maGz: which do you live in dmt?
cooKiEz is maGz: tthe law of non contradiction states you can't live in both
NN-DMT: the real world which entails both, what u see is simply a product of ur brain chemistry so u can never say what is real and what is not
NN-DMT: think bout someone who thinks he is pissed off for a right reason but in everyone elses eyes he is freaking ove nothing
NN-DMT: like getting chinsed a cent at a food store, for him its real, for us its unreal
cooKiEz is maGz: when you can't see what's directly in front of you, you have no right to speak of the invisible
NN-DMT: how is it that shamsn have used plants spirits to cure cancer with 10x more success than chemo
cooKiEz is maGz: document it
NN-DMT: and even HIV
cooKiEz is maGz: document it
cooKiEz is maGz: document it document it document it
NN-DMT: ill find the article and i will send u when i find it
cooKiEz is maGz: yes, but where did it come from dmt?
cooKiEz is maGz: from a university?
NN-DMT: yep
cooKiEz is maGz: or a journalist looking for a story?
NN-DMT: Johns Hopkins university i do believe i have to find it first
cooKiEz is maGz: now here's the big question, who says it has ANYTHING TO DO WITH SPIRITS and not MORE to do with the chemicals involved
cooKiEz is maGz: chemicals that change the way one believes have powerful effects on a machine based on processing it's own memory
NN-DMT: drumming
NN-DMT: keyword
NN-DMT: to be honest man, u have a firm belief in what u are talking about soo im nto gonna change that and we should jsut agree to disagree, different believefs is what makes this universe great
cooKiEz is maGz: lol
cooKiEz is maGz: you can't change the fact that a ball always drops at 9.8m/s^2 on this planet dmt
cooKiEz is maGz: just like you can't change the lack of evidence a spiritual realm has
cooKiEz is maGz: there is such a thing as meditation, and there is such a concept as finding a tranquil place
cooKiEz is maGz: but it's NOT outside of your mind
cooKiEz is maGz: you discredit yourself still
cooKiEz is maGz: i wish you could see how little you think of yourself
NN-DMT: like i said it depends on the perception of the science used, shamans have there own science that has jsut as much evidence of what they are doing to what modern culture is doing
cooKiEz is maGz: and how little pride you have in your existance
NN-DMT: i a=have much pride in myexistence
NN-DMT: but in my spirits and the body that accompanies it
cooKiEz is maGz: :-\
cooKiEz is maGz: i'm sorry dude
cooKiEz is maGz: but the only reason i feel so strongly against what you say
cooKiEz is maGz: is because you do have the intelligence to be a naturalist
cooKiEz is maGz: but you don't have the desire to let go of your fears
cooKiEz is maGz: at the very least i respect you because you do NO harm to this place
cooKiEz is maGz: that's very important
NN-DMT: me becoming a materialist wont let me let go of any fears
NN-DMT: then i would remark my fear as simple brain chemistry
cooKiEz is maGz: i would rather you NOT do harm, than participate in harming us
 
dam that is a long read.

NN-DMT: its about balance between materialism and spirituality'

Yeh good point and apporachy, encompasing all then being so narrow is for a rule of thumb always better. At the end of the day were are materilistic animals, its hows its evoloved. Even tho one knows one dont need somthing to survive, but wants it because one likes it for its materlistic facts, surly that can not be bad, and they will still recive the rewards at the end. It becomes dangerous when one lets "materlistic" ideas, objects, and views, get a hold of them. you come in the to the world with nothing, so you should accept going out of the world with nothing.

R*R
L
 
L_Star said:
dam that is a long read.

NN-DMT: its about balance between materialism and spirituality'

Yeh good point and apporachy, encompasing all then being so narrow is for a rule of thumb always better. At the end of the day were are materilistic animals, its hows its evoloved. Even tho one knows one dont need somthing to survive, but wants it because one likes it for its materlistic facts, surly that can not be bad, and they will still recive the rewards at the end. It becomes dangerous when one lets "materlistic" ideas, objects, and views, get a hold of them. you come in the to the world with nothing, so you should accept going out of the world with nothing.

R*R
L
Click to expand...

exactly. And no to mention materialism is created by the brains chemical reactions. like i made my point several times. Serotonin only evolved laer in evolution and serotonin is the main chemical that provide us with the picture of ourselves. Also, go and tell the shamans all over the world and the monks that the spirit world doesnt exist, its stupidety...

Based on science which is what this guy seems to thrive on, the human brain does not have concsious, scientists cant prove that concsiousness is real, we jsut know it is because of human experience! You cant use physical yo explain something spiritual.
 
I totally support cooKiEz is maGz's viewpoint. Perfectly rational, perfectly plausible and verifiable. The way I see it DMT just opens doors within our minds that are otherwise locked. I don't see why, or how, they could make us contact a hypothetical spirit realm of any sort that does not exist physically, but still separated from ourselves. Where is this spirit realm? It's within us! All the potential lies within us, it is all up in there between your ears and behind your eyes. That's the shit folks, that's the holy grail. It is the most concentrated form of matter we know of, it is the goddamn cathedral of complexity. It is through this that the universe experiences itself and evolves further to cross it's boundaries. It is here it creates a realm of spirit generated through the mechanisms of the matter that lies beneath it.

It is totally amazing and hallucinogens are very effective tools to explore these realms of the mind. To go in and dive deep into the complexity that is our minds and our consciousness. But no, I don't think it is any such thing as a separated spirit world. It's just us, it's just nature, it's just consciousness. Stop separating. And you CAN in fact use "physical yo" to explain something spiritual. Would there be any spiritual without the "physical yo"?. The way I see it the spiritual arises as a consequence of the mechanisms of matter. Without your brain, where is the spiritual? Without evolution, where is your brain? Without the complex properties and interactions of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, phosphorous, and sulfur - where is life and evolution? Without the complex properties and interactions of physics - where are these elements? Without all of these things, where the fuck is DMT?

Does this viewpoint seem somewhat not magical and less amazing? If so, try to learn something from science and take it with you and trip balls on it and you'll see. The universe is so damn amazing and totally nuts, but so are we because we are the universe coming on in this spesific and totally magnificent form. I don't want to push the amazingness away from this and apply it to some spirit realm that is separated from everything else. Everything is natural and everything is intertwined. Everything is just a reflection of everything else, as Alan Watts nicely put it.
 
One big problem with strong materialism is that we have no evidence to prove that the objective material world in which we seem to exist indeed exists.

We can be certain only that our subjective consciousness exists, including our subjective conscious perceptions. Our perceptions have certain qualities that lead us to believe that there is an objective reality beyond our subjective experience. There may indeed be an objective reality, but objective reality as we understand it is really an illusion.

Our perceptions have persistence, consistency, seem to obey rules/laws, flow through time, etc. We create an abstraction that we call “reality” in order to plausibly explain our subjective experiences. We believe that objective reality exists, but we cannot prove that it exists.
 
Yeah, sure. We can't really prove shit and bladibla, but we can observe, gather data, form hypothesis, conduct experiments and analyze the data and draw conclusions. Then all of this can be retested again by others. It is a very effective way to observe and learn about the world around us, and if so many others observes the same results - well, then that is a strong suggestion that this in fact is a phenomenon that exists. If the observations don't hold then the scientific community is the first ones to honestly throw that in the garbage can.

Oh, and not to mention where the observation of the physical world has lead us with technology and modern medicine. The reason you sit on the computer writing at this forum is because your species have been masters of this particular sector of space. We have learned about physical processes and properties, and so we have been able to exploit these and create stuff out of our imagination based on the laws, properties and interactions we have observed again and again. Without the knowledge there would be no way we'd have technology like this. The same goes for modern medicine. So this abstraction of reality that we create works, it works pretty goddamn well too. To deny this is ridicilous and only shows your lack of knowledge about science.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to state that we know much (or that we can know everything); because we don't really know much at all. All I am trying to point out is what we can say about nature according to our observations and well established sciences, and that these are valuable considerations to take into account when we're discussing stuff like reality, consciousness etc. Science is concerned about what we can say about nature, trying to be as objective as possible. Keeping it real, you know? And this is working pretty well (look again at our technology). I don't consider myself to be a hardcore realist or materialist, but more like a spiritual naturalist with my back against science.

And by the way; To say that we can't know anything for sure is kinda like just giving up and escaping the problem. If all of us had that attitude, saying that "meh, we can't know that this exists. Meh, we can't really prove anything. Meh, it's just an abstraction of reality, just an illusion. No point" and so on and so forth - where the hell would our species be? It is the quest for knowledge, it is through asking questions and trying to answer them, it is the firm belief that we in fact CAN say something about nature that has lead us to these very interesting times. And it is the same drive that makes many of us here at the nexus visit these extraordinary realms of the mind that psychedelics opens up for us again and again.

But in the end no one really has the faintest idea as to what is really going on =)
 
Although my previous post may seem to be in disagreement, I agree with you completely. Just about everything of significance that we know about the world around us we have come to know via science. But science has its limitations, and they’re quite severe. Let me explain it with an analogy:

Suppose as part of an “experiment” I blindfold you and put sound-blocking headphones on you, and then, after a period of time, I take you somewhere and remove the blindfold and headphones.

You find yourself in what appears to be a submarine. This submarine has no windows – only video screens presumably connected to cameras that allow you to see what’s outside. You also have some control mechanisms that seem to allow you to manipulate robotic arms on the outside of the submarine. You begin to explore.

As the days and weeks go by, you catalog all of the strange deep-sea creatures you see floating by, you maybe test the physical characteristics of the rock formations, and you come to develop theories about the flora and fauna of your surroundings on the ocean floor.

It is by applying science that you’re able to learn about the objects you encounter in your exploration. You can develop hypotheses, you can test these hypotheses and even establish rules and “laws” concerning your environment. If there are others on the submarine, they can, using their own “evidence”, support or refute your claims. This is what science allows us to do.

But science can’t ever answer some very simple questions about your situation. Questions such as:

Am I really on a submarine?

Am I at the bottom of the ocean or in an experimental tank or on the 5th floor of an office building?

Are the images I see on the monitors computer-generated? Are all of the objects, the flora and fauna, the rocks, and everything else I’ve seen and scientifically analyzed “real”?

What is the “true” nature of what I see?
 
this is the split between science and philosophy then; scientists just assume that what we can see, hear, taste, touch and measure is the real world or the 'true' reality, and they don't waste time questioning it like philosophers - they just get on with measuring it.
 
Getting on with meauring the world is the most effective and practical thing to do. To be concerned with questions such as those posted over here can be done in privacy, and I am sure scientists asks themselves stuff like this as well. Have you ever sat down and talked to a scientist about reality, universe etc? I certainly have. I am taking physics, mathematics, chemistry and biology at school so I am frequently in talks with educated people about these matters while I am diving into it myself. And I can sure as hell tell you that talking with these people is most interesting and very rewarding, and they are very open minded and thirsty for knowledge.

It is people like this that brings our species further. They ask questions and seek to answer them through a spesific method (the scientific method) to be as objective and real as possible. Science is a method that works pretty damn well, thats why we continue doing it. While asking yourself questions like the ones raised above is personally exciting they don't get you anywhere. This is why science is not concerned with stuff like that, but concerned with working with the things that we CAN say about nature through observations and experiments conducted by several people to make it as objective and real as possible. It is true that science can't answer those questions, but it is not in science's interest to do so either. Besides, who the hell can answer it anyway? No philosopher, no religious man, no scientist, no spiritual person can answer a question like that. It falls on its own absurdity. So using that as an argument against the implications and works of science is ridicilous, which it seems like some of you do when we get into these talks.
 
shoe said:
this is the split between science and philosophy then; scientists just assume that what we can see, hear, taste, touch and measure is the real world or the 'true' reality, and they don't waste time questioning it like philosophers - they just get on with measuring it.
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Most of the "classical science" probably, but not all sort of science, if you look quantum physics they are questionning some of the very basements of this conscensus reality. Starting their statement as : this the world as humans see it, not as it is really.

I fond this very in tune with some of our hyperspace experience.
from such statement in science you can travel through eternity and yet be scientific.
Just knowing what you really are : an animal perceving things and treating this information to form his reality, because it is needed.
Aaaah, I started then to love science...
 
Exactly r0m. Quantum mechanics is very interesting and totally fucking nuts. Start getting into it folks! Don't put yourself up against science. Why is it that some of you seem to do that anyway? Are you afraid that science may put holes in your worldviews? Put holes in your beliefs? You feel "threatened" by it? There must be some drive here that makes you resent science, because it seems like many here at the nexus do - and I can't see why. I do psychedelics, I smoke DMT, but I am a student of science anyway. Where is the problem?
 
Citta said:
...While asking yourself questions like the ones raised above is personally exciting they don't get you anywhere. This is why science is not concerned with stuff like that, but concerned with working with the things that we CAN say about nature through observations and experiments conducted by several people to make it as objective and real as possible. It is true that science can't answer those questions, but it is not in science's interest to do so either. Besides, who the hell can answer it anyway? No philosopher, no religious man, no scientist, no spiritual person can answer a question like that. It falls on its own absurdity. So using that as an argument against the implications and works of science is ridicilous, which it seems like some of you do when we get into these talks.
Click to expand...

Asking such questions does indeed get us somewhere. It can lead us to change our beliefs about the world around us and our relationships with the world and with others, and since our beliefs influence our behavior, asking such questions is not a trivial idle business.

My argument is not against the “implications and works” of science. I’ve just been trying to point out (apparently with limited success :? ) that science, like everything else, has limitations. A physicist you may have heard of, Richard Feynman, once compared the physical universe to a game of chess. He said that science allows us to discover the rules of the game by watching how the pieces are moved. He also said that science is silent on the subject of where the game came from, who’s playing it, why chess and not checkers, etc.

These are interesting questions! They may be forever unanswerable, but that doesn’t make them any less interesting.

(By the way, my professional background is in science and technology.)
 
This communauty as far as I can see it uses a lot new technologies, we are all on computer, dealing with plants interaction, or extraction !! That is more science-hobby than most poeple around the corner !
Maybe the problem is that the academic science as the same problem as most academic knowledge, we just can't relate to it much since it may be harsh on some of our metaphysical worldviews. It certainly doesn't accept all of the paradigms we may choose to believe.
Quantum mechanic is so handy, speaking about parallel universes, cord theory, infinity... There is no clash anymore between spiritual realms and materialism.
 
gibran2 said:
Citta said:
...While asking yourself questions like the ones raised above is personally exciting they don't get you anywhere. This is why science is not concerned with stuff like that, but concerned with working with the things that we CAN say about nature through observations and experiments conducted by several people to make it as objective and real as possible. It is true that science can't answer those questions, but it is not in science's interest to do so either. Besides, who the hell can answer it anyway? No philosopher, no religious man, no scientist, no spiritual person can answer a question like that. It falls on its own absurdity. So using that as an argument against the implications and works of science is ridicilous, which it seems like some of you do when we get into these talks.
Click to expand...

Asking such questions does indeed get us somewhere. It can lead us to change our beliefs about the world around us and our relationships with the world and with others, and since our beliefs influence our behavior, asking such questions is not a trivial idle business.

My argument is not against the “implications and works” of science. I’ve just been trying to point out (apparently with limited success :? ) that science, like everything else, has limitations. A physicist you may have heard of, Richard Feynman, once compared the physical universe to a game of chess. He said that science allows us to discover the rules of the game by watching how the pieces are moved. He also said that science is silent on the subject of where the game came from, who’s playing it, why chess and not checkers, etc.

These are interesting questions! They may be forever unanswerable, but that doesn’t make them any less interesting.
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That's make much sense. We don't know much, as we observing subjectively trying to assest objectively rules that just works in our world representation.
In this means, science is like most games, it is sliced of life analysed, dynamics of our own perception that we dream of being "universal".
The art is more true in that it states itself as a subjective product.

This is really interesting thread !
 
Good posts guys (r0m and gibran2), we seem to be on the same wavelength and I agree with much of what you're saying. =)
What I originally argued against was the firm belief in a spirit world separated from ourselves and everything else. I really don't think any such thing exists, but that these places just are properties of our mind, nature and consciousness. Or what the heck, I don't know what to think (DMT anyone?) :D
 
Citta said:
Good posts guys (r0m and gibran2), we seem to be on the same wavelength and I agree with much of what you're saying. =)
What I originally argued against was the firm belief in a spirit world separated from ourselves and everything else. I really don't think any such thing exists, but that these places just are properties of our mind, nature and consciousness. Or what the heck, I don't know what to think (DMT anyone?) :D
Click to expand...

We’re almost on the same wavelength. I firmly believe that our physical world and the “immaterial realm” are connected in a real, “physical” manner. No hocus-pocus.

And some of the things I have seen are self-evidently real – definitely not a product of my mind (unless we’re defining mind as something separate from brain).

If you don’t believe this yet, then increase your dose. :lol:
 
gibran2 said:
Citta said:
Good posts guys (r0m and gibran2), we seem to be on the same wavelength and I agree with much of what you're saying. =)
What I originally argued against was the firm belief in a spirit world separated from ourselves and everything else. I really don't think any such thing exists, but that these places just are properties of our mind, nature and consciousness. Or what the heck, I don't know what to think (DMT anyone?) :D
Click to expand...

We’re almost on the same wavelength. I firmly believe that our physical world and the “immaterial realm” are connected in a real, “physical” manner. No hocus-pocus.

And some of the things I have seen are self-evidently real – definitely not a product of my mind (unless we’re defining mind as something separate from brain).

If you don’t believe this yet, then increase your dose. :lol:
Click to expand...

Yes, this is what I have been trying to somewhat state (read my first post). That they are inseparable and totally intertwined and dependent on eachother. Nothing supernatural, nothing hocus pocus, perfectly natural. But seriously tho, raising the dose is not a bad idea! ;D
 
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