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acetate and fumarate solubility

Migrated topic.
I can't seem to find my source, but 150 mg of dmt should fit into 1 ml of vinegar...

Since vinegar is 95% water, I would assume that water can hold about 142.5 mg of dmt-acetate per ml...
 
dooby said:
I can't seem to find my source, but 150 mg of dmt should fit into 1 ml of vinegar...

Since vinegar is 95% water, I would assume that water can hold about 142.5 mg of dmt-acetate per ml...
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The DMT stops dissolving once the acetic acid has all been neutralised. 10% acetic acid will almost certainly dissolve 300mg per ml. But I might just sit back awhile and actually do the calculations...
 
Come to think of it, just what does the percentage of vinegar refer to? w/w? w/v? v/v? Sometimes it says "percentage acidity".. I think my brain just packed up and I'll have to go and lie down. :?

300mg/ml sounds absolutely ridiculous...
 
OK, managed to do a quick calculation:

DMT m.w.=188g/mol, therefore 300mg=1.59mmol.
acetic acid m.w.=60g/mol, therefore 1.59mmol=96mg or thereabouts.

96mg acetic acid in 1ml aqueous solution =9.6% w/v (I think), so maybe 300mg/ml isn't quite so ridiculous after all. It equates to 30g/100ml, which is on a par with some highly soluble inorganic salts, for example. The actual value for solubility I would recommend determining experimentally for oneself.
 
Dude, I think you're way overthinking this. 10% acetic is not what will be holding the dmt, the water is what is going to be holding the dmt. So it doesn't matter if its 10%, 5% or 95%. All that matters is the water content. If 5% vinegar will salt any amount of dmt. I put into it. Why? Because let's say you have 100ml vinegar(5%) that means that 95ml of water is actually there to hold the dmt that the 5% of acetic salted. If it was 10% acetic, then there would only be 90ml of water, actually making it hold less than the 5% would. Right? Lol and of that 100ml(5%), the 5ml of pure acetic will salt enough dmt to be held in that other 95ml. Correct? I mean, if it didn't then why would people make 3 parts water 1 part vinegar mixes to use in their ATB teks? Essentially saying that 5% vinegar can be dilluted A LOT more before it stops being as effective at salting.
 
DMT fumarate is very soluble in water, I think somewhere around 1g per 10ml or even more but I haven't done a scientific comparison. I assume DMT acetate would be similarly soluble.
 
1g of DMT is ~0.005mol of DMT, since acetate ions bind to only one DMT molecule you need 0.005mol of acetic acid, so 0.318g of acetic acid. If your vinegar is 5% acetic acid, then you need 6.4g ~ 6.4ml of vinegar to salt 1g of DMT.
 
Du57mi73 said:
Dude, I think you're way overthinking this. 10% acetic is not what will be holding the dmt, the water is what is going to be holding the dmt. So it doesn't matter if its 10%, 5% or 95%. All that matters is the water content. If 5% vinegar will salt any amount of dmt. I put into it. Why? Because let's say you have 100ml vinegar(5%) that means that 95ml of water is actually there to hold the dmt that the 5% of acetic salted. If it was 10% acetic, then there would only be 90ml of water, actually making it hold less than the 5% would. Right? Lol and of that 100ml(5%), the 5ml of pure acetic will salt enough dmt to be held in that other 95ml. Correct? I mean, if it didn't then why would people make 3 parts water 1 part vinegar mixes to use in their ATB teks? Essentially saying that 5% vinegar can be dilluted A LOT more before it stops being as effective at salting.
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This isn't exactly how things work:)
 
Infundibulum said:
Du57mi73 said:
Dude, I think you're way overthinking this. 10% acetic is not what will be holding the dmt, the water is what is going to be holding the dmt. So it doesn't matter if its 10%, 5% or 95%. All that matters is the water content. If 5% vinegar will salt any amount of dmt. I put into it. Why? Because let's say you have 100ml vinegar(5%) that means that 95ml of water is actually there to hold the dmt that the 5% of acetic salted. If it was 10% acetic, then there would only be 90ml of water, actually making it hold less than the 5% would. Right? Lol and of that 100ml(5%), the 5ml of pure acetic will salt enough dmt to be held in that other 95ml. Correct? I mean, if it didn't then why would people make 3 parts water 1 part vinegar mixes to use in their ATB teks? Essentially saying that 5% vinegar can be dilluted A LOT more before it stops being as effective at salting.
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This isn't exactly how things work:)
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Thank you, Inf.

The amount of DMT freebase that will dissolve in a given volume of vinegar does depend on the strength of the vinegar. But the point about the amount of water "left over", so to speak, is also relevant. Imagine adding glacial acetic acid (100%) to pure DMT freebase. There would be no water involved and we would be considering the solubility of DMT acetate in GAA, up to the point where there is a 1:1 molar ratio of the two, when there would be no solvent left either. That is essentially the upper extreme of the DMT/acetic acid system.

Acid acetate salts (e.g. sodium diacetate) also exist. There is the possibility that such a salt might also form for DMT when neutralising in a high concentration of acetic acid. The stability of such a compound would be dependant on the ambient temperature and partial vapour pressure of acetic acid. I don't know if anyone has investigated this. It might be interesting.

The median point (or, at least, a median point) in this scheme would be to consider what percentage strength of acetic acid contains just enough water to exactly neutralise and dissolve the corresponding amount of DMT freebase at a given temperature. Bear in mind that the energy given out by the neutralisation would warm the solution slightly, but also that the dissolution of the crystal matrix of the DMT would absorb heat (just as a melting ice cube absorbs heat). This in no way answers the original question in this thread, but I think it's at least slightly interesting :d

Du57mi73, please do not tell me I'm "overthinking" [sic] this - this is the Advanced/Enhanced chemistry section after all - I am interested in the science of this and it is very helpful for me (myself) to come to a better grasp of this by attempting to explain things in simple language - even if I might stray a tad off topic occasionally :).
 
downwardsfromzero said:
Acid acetate salts (e.g. sodium diacetate) also exist. There is the possibility that such a salt might also form for DMT when neutralising in a high concentration of acetic acid. The stability of such a compound would be dependant on the ambient temperature and partial vapour pressure of acetic acid. I don't know if anyone has investigated this. It might be interesting.
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Actually this isn't how things work either:)

Sodium diacetate exists only as solid. Dissolve it in water, and you just have a bunch of sodium cations and acetate anions floating around (stoichiometrically though, with twice as many acetate ions than sodium ions). The very same things happens with all the salts that dissolve in water; they simply cease being salts and they become dissociated positively or negatively ions (encircled with water molecules) that float around. Strictly speaking, there is no nation of salt when said salt is dissolved in water and by extension, when people (not you in particular, just ranting a bit!) say things like " I added citric acid in my brew so dmt tannate will turn to dmt citrate", it is complete BS.
 
I'm sorry if that sounded rude. I guess I try to oversimplify things, and I run into problems in doing so. I apologize.
 
Infundibulum said:
downwardsfromzero said:
Acid acetate salts (e.g. sodium diacetate) also exist. There is the possibility that such a salt might also form for DMT when neutralising in a high concentration of acetic acid. The stability of such a compound would be dependant on the ambient temperature and partial vapour pressure of acetic acid. I don't know if anyone has investigated this. It might be interesting.
Click to expand...
Actually this isn't how things work either:)

Sodium diacetate exists only as solid. Dissolve it in water, and you just have a bunch of sodium cations and acetate anions floating around (stoichiometrically though, with twice as many acetate ions than sodium ions). The very same things happens with all the salts that dissolve in water; they simply cease being salts and they become dissociated positively or negatively ions (encircled with water molecules) that float around. Strictly speaking, there is no nation of salt when said salt is dissolved in water and by extension, when people (not you in particular, just ranting a bit!) say things like " I added citric acid in my brew so dmt tannate will turn to dmt citrate", it is complete BS.
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Sorry, yes, I meant as crystals! It was a bit of on-the-fly freeform speculation. I strive to make things clear and explicit where necessary, but often choose the wrong things and omit those that should have been stated. That's what makes places like this so very useful for straightening things out.

So, do any of us have an actual, reliable figure for the solubility of DMT acetate and DMT fumarate (in water, at s.t.p. :) )?
 
Du57mi73 said:
I'm sorry if that sounded rude. I guess I try to oversimplify things, and I run into problems in doing so. I apologize.
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Hey, it's OK. I do overcomplicate things on all too often an occasion myself. We are using a device for the exchange of ideas, and although I cannot speak for you, I know that our personal agendas will not coincide exactly. Varying degrees of focus on journey versus destination?
 
Hello,

This has not been confirmed yet but there may well be a difference between dissolving/acetatinating "dry" dmt freebase in vinegar and doing so when the freebase is dissolved in a non polar solvent...

1 ml of vinegar can dissolve about 150 mg of dmt - but it surely can't pull 150 mg of dmt out of an nps... At least that is my experience-based hypothesis which has not yet been confirmad by any chem savvy Nexians...

My explanation for this would be that the nps is slightly basic due to containing freebase molecules and due to acetic being a weak acid it takes a lot of vinegar to "overcome" the equilibrium...

edit - Another explanation might be that dmt acetate could be slightly soluble in toluene...
 
dooby said:
Hello,

This has not been confirmed yet but there may well be a difference between dissolving/acetatinating "dry" dmt freebase in vinegar and doing so when the freebase is dissolved in a non polar solvent...

1 ml of vinegar can dissolve about 150 mg of dmt - but it surely can't pull 150 mg of dmt out of an nps... At least that is my experience-based hypothesis which has not yet been confirmad by any chem savvy Nexians...

My explanation for this would be that the nps is slightly basic due to containing freebase molecules and due to acetic being a weak acid it takes a lot of vinegar to "overcome" the equilibrium...

edit - Another explanation might be that dmt acetate could be slightly soluble in toluene...
Click to expand...
The only explanation is that 1ml of vinegar cannot adequately come fully in contact with the np solvent and salt all the dmt out. This you can test by dissolving this 1 ml of vinegar in, say, 100 ml of water (to increase its volume) and try to pull with that from nps.

Theories of nps holding dmt being slightly basic are wrong on many different levels, so better not taken into consideration. Also, pulling dmt from a nps and dissolving dmt freebase in an acid is first a ionisation reaction dictated by the pka of dmt, followed by a base (dmt is the base) neutralisation.
 
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