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Activity of methylated Tyramines in San Pedro cacti and allies

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A study from the late 80s found that small amounts of N-methyltyramine were found in the brains of mice after administration, though 80% of the NMT was excreted rapidly. I posit that the addition of the methyl group to the molecule likely increases its ability to pass the blood brain barrier and I suspect that this is also true for the alkaloid 3-methoxytyramine. 3-methoxytyramine is also known to occur in the active San Pedro cactus species as 1-10% of the total alkaloid content.

These tyramine variations are known as agonists at the trace amine receptor TAAR1, which appears to be involved strongly in the effects of stimulants like amphetamines.

I suspect that the stimulant effects noted from species like Trichocereus pasacana are due to the methylated tyramines and I expect that they can alter and affect cactus experiences when co-administered with mescaline.

It is my contention that there is a plausible basis for suspecting that San Pedro cacti do contain psychoactive alkaloids other than mescaline and that those alkaloids appear to be stimulant, rather than psychedelic in action. As that up to 10% of the alkaloids of the San Pedro cacti have been reported to be 3-methoxytyramine, I expect that as the dose and or potency increases the action of these alkaloids becomes more relevant to the experience in a dose dependent manner.

I also suspect that reports of cacti being able to be used like San Pedro, but different in terms of effects, relate to cacti whose primary alkaloids are methylated tyramines, such as N-methyltyramine, and that the effects are stimulant in nature, rather than psychedelic.

In a related topic, the enzyme pathways of hybrid cacti potentially contain contributions from both parents, ergo a cactus that produces mescaline, crossed with a cactus that produces hordenine (N-dimethylated tyramine) should potentially produce offspring that contain N-dimethylated-mescaline aka Trichocereine. That topic is worthy of another thread, one about enzymatic pathways and products in terms of hybrids of San Pedro cacti and their allies.

Suffice it to say, I expect that reports of certain cacti having different feels to them are not merely a matter of mescaline dose variation, but also relate to the ingestion of 3-methoxytyramine. This is in contrast to the often repeated mythology that flavonoid molecules and inhibition of MAO are responsible for the reported differences. At this point I speculate based on the chemistry and pharmacology, however this hypothesis is able to be tested by trialing combinations of mescaline, purified via chromatography, with varying amounts of 3-methoxytyramine, as well as through the experimental ingestion of 3-methoxytyramine by itself.
 
3-Methoxytyramine.jpg
An image of 3-methoxytyramine.
Note that the hydroxyl group at the 4 position should limit the ability of the molecule to be extracted with A/B and STB extraction methods.
Even at high pH it should remain soluble in the aqueous layer, meaning that while it is easily ingested as a tea or brew it is not easily isolated the way mescaline is, by extraction into a non-polar solvent at high pH. It is not a molecule that one should expect to turn up in typical extractions used for mescaline, even if it is abundant in the source plant material.

If my hunch is correct, some cacti should elicit distinct effects depending on if they are eaten, brewed or extracted, with eating the cactus allowing all alkaloids present to be ingested, with brewing allowing all water soluble alkaloids to be ingested and with extraction allowing mostly just mescaline to be extracted. This also potentially explains past reports of cacti whose activity upon ingestion appeared stronger than the amount of mescaline recovered from them in extraction would appear to support, in terms of its ability to elicit effects. This type of situation was previously considered to be a result of the inhibition of MAO by flavonoids like quercetin and kaempferol, which I consider implausible and unsupported.
 
I suspect that co-administration of 3-methoxytyramine with mescaline potentially alters the metabolism of the molecules, perhaps through enzymatic competition.
 
In exploring this topic I have run into issues with the limitations of knowledge about the metabolic fate of mescaline in people.

It appears that some of the mescaline is metabolized by MAO, but this is not confirmed as of yet.
Several of the tyramines are well known as MAO substrates as is dopamine. In fact, MAO-A has a primary role in terms of the regulation of dopamine levels according to this paper here.

It is also known that something like 60% of ingested mescaline is excreted unchanged in the urine.
The question is; how does co-adminstration of mescaline affect the metabolism of methylated tyramines when it comes to cacti.
In theory they may compete at receptors and enzymes that metabolize or process the molecules.

There is a lot to consider and a lack of detailed information. Cacti and the metabolism of their alkaloids are not well studied at this point and there aren't many answers to the nearly endless set of questions that relate to this.
 
Hordenine is another methylated tyramine widely found in cacti, it is also soluble in basic water, and it has stimulant effects. Incidentally, it seems that inopportune application of the acronym "DMT" for hordenine led to the misapprehension that dimethyltryptamine occurred in Echinocereus triglochidiatus. It was only every dimethyltyramine (and thanks to K. Trout for clearing up that tidbit!)

There's a huge range of permutations of methylation of oxygenated phenethylamines throughout the cactaceae and a number of non-hallucinogenic species are understood to have stimulant properties. As far as the pharmacology goes, we have only scratched the surface.

Most of what we know about human metabolism of mescaline dates back to a few radioisotope tracer studies performed by Charalampous et al. in 1966. https://doi.org/10.1007/bf00427703 Metabolic fate of mescaline in man - PubMed

See also: https://doi.org/10.1159/000105047 The metabolism of mescalin in the human; delayed clinical reactions to mescalin - PubMed Confin Neurol. 1958;18(2-4):152-5.

The metabolism of mescalin in the human; delayed clinical reactions to mescalin​

J HARLEY-MASON, A H LAIRD, J R SMYTHIES

And a good review here: Pharmacokinetic and Pharmacodynamic Aspects of Peyote and Mescaline: Clinical and Forensic Repercussions
 
Thank you for sharing links to those papers!
Interestingly hordenine, or NN-dimethyltyramine is found to some degree in beer.
The conflation of Hordenine with DMT is interesting.
Trout is someone I've learned a lot from.

It should be noted that N-methyltyramine is also abbreviated as NMT in a lot of literature and this could potentially be confused with N-methytryptamine, also called NMT, including in various posts here.
 
It's a neat idea. Your hypothesis should be simple enough to test qualitatively: Compare and contrast two trips: one of cactus tea and one of mescaline extract from the same cactus tea. Have you or someone you trust done this yet? You would of course have to know roughly the correct dosage for the cactus tea.

Another additional test I just thought of is to make tea from a non-mescaline containing cactus, but that contains 3-MeO-Tyramine, such as Optunia, and take that with mescaline extract. Does this produce any qualitative differences? If your trip is more like the original cactus tea than mescaline on its own, that would be strong evidence in favor of your idea.
 
Your hypothesis should be simple enough to test qualitatively
It looks as though there are at least two aspects to the hypothesis. I think it would be interesting to tease apart the possible enzymatic competition from the receptor effects:
I posit that the addition of the methyl group to the molecule likely increases its ability to pass the blood brain barrier and I suspect that this is also true for the alkaloid 3-methoxytyramine. 3-methoxytyramine is also known to occur in the active San Pedro cactus species as 1-10% of the total alkaloid content.
I suspect that the stimulant effects noted from species like Trichocereus pasacana are due to the methylated tyramines and I expect that they can alter and affect cactus experiences when co-administered with mescaline.
I suspect that co-administration of 3-methoxytyramine with mescaline potentially alters the metabolism of the molecules, perhaps through enzymatic competition.
The question is; how does co-adminstration of mescaline affect the metabolism of methylated tyramines when it comes to cacti.
In theory they may compete at receptors and enzymes that metabolize or process the molecules.
WRT this last part, there may also be gene-regulation effects which lead to subjective differences downstream.

make tea from a non-mescaline containing cactus, but that contains 3-MeO-Tyramine, such as Optunia
There are at least anecdotal reports of Opuntia cactus being added to ayahuasca, IIRC.
 
I was reminded of this post last weekend after eating a piece of fresh cactus - a small piece, about 2cm, of a quite thin cactus (~4cm ø). I don't know if it's my background harmala levels but that tiny bit was very noticeable and stimulating enough that I couldn't sleep for hours. The following day I had a fairly terrible headache until the evening, when I stretched my neck in various ways and got a loud "crack" out of it, so I'd hesitate to point the finger directly at the cactus for the headache - especially since it was 'headachey' weather, and I'd had one bottle of beer the previous evening, which is quite unusual for me, not to mention the road trip of getting to where I was going.

Cactus always seems suited to travelling - peyote and Sam Pedro traditions often involve long journeys, perhaps to find the sacred peyote grounds, or to visit sacred mountain lakes for huachuma ceremonies. But I digress - the point is that whole raw cactus can be surprisingly stimulating. This instance was so intense that it would be prudent to do an analysis on the raw cactus with a view to getting a full-spectrum picture of the alkaloids and other possible active components such as flavonoids.

Cactus type illustrated:
20220820_213607.jpg
 
Trying to better understand my non-mescaline hcl salt experience I've stumbled on this thread :)
N-Methylmescaline fits the best possible alkaloid for the effects that I've experienced. "It is a positional-isomer of Trimethoxyamphetamine" which is a strong stimulant and the effects I've had is 16 hours very strong clean alertness and energy without any common counter effects (only used 100mg hcl with 200mg harmalas)

This alkaloid has a xlogp3 of 1.2 so not soluble in EtOAc and wouldn't be salted with cielo. This is however possible to salt with xylene and also isoporpanol which I'm certain is what I've gotten to salt from my extraction using BASI concept I'm still working on.

Is there a 'simple' method to demethylate a salt? I'm still need a deeper understanding on the biosynthesis of the cacti alkaloids and methods to increase the production. I've proposed ethylene as the final step which would be the equivalent of stressing. There are other methods as well but plants are pretty complex so not always a 1 step process.
 
Is there a 'simple' method to demethylate a salt?
No, sadly.
N-Methylmescaline fits the best possible alkaloid for the effects that I've experienced.
How would you exclude, say, 3-methoxytyramine or its N-methylated derivatives? I'd urge you to at least try paper chromatography for a start on making some analytical insights about your material. Separation and presumptive testing will get you some of the way towards a better understanding, but structural determination requires more advanced techniques. Perhaps you could try finding a sympathetic researcher in one of your national universities?

^This should help you to determine how plausible your present conclusion might be. And this:
 

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I'd exclude based on my subjective experience? Also with a xlogp3 of .2; wouldn't that be soluble in ethyl acetate and be present in cielo if found in large enough content? I'll take another look at the paper chromatography.

Edit:
I may be wrong on how xlogp3 works exactly but my understandings is over .7 logp ethyl acetate isn’t a great solvent but under that value it will also pick it up? So N-Methylmescaline isopropyl will pick it up because quite polar but ethyl acetate will not.

With 3-methoxytyramine the effects would be similar to dopamine and not stimulant-like I'd imagine.
"3-MT plays an important physiological role as an inhibitory regulator counteracting excessive stimulation of catecholaminergic neurons in the striatum."

"3-MT is not just an inactive metabolite of DA, but a novel neuromodulator that in certain situations may be involved in movement control."

I did reread the proposal of the OP and see it hordenine was also mentioned in the thread as stimulant like activity with TAAR-1 being responsible I don't have any understanding on that. I do always intend on using an MAOI so my experience may always be altered to those that take it without. Hordenine from what I've read over the years is that it is considered inactive unless you take like 500mg+ doses? (I may be mistaking for another alkaloid)
Edit: I was wrong an apparently 50mg hcl is active dosage however short lived?

There is indeed a possibility of the salt containing various different N-methylated alkaloids however based on most of the older reports all alkaloids other than mescaline are minor occurrences with even Hordenine being minor. With the amount of salt present N-Methylmescaline still present the best explaination since it could possibly under different conditions be mescaline by o-demethlyation or simply not being methylated to start with. These cacti I've tested were not 'stressed' prior to extraction in any manner. Or perhaps the enzymes simply don't have the step to Mescaline in these cacti looking at the chart posted Activity of methylated Tyramines in San Pedro cacti and allies


Using the trout cactus chemisty link you provided seems to add to my idea?... among the active cacti having 1-10% of 10-50mg total alkaloids from 100g fresh being 3-Methoxytyramine. So .1-5mg being 3-MT from 100g fresh. If 3-MT were active cuzcoensis would be active with "3-Methoxytyramine (Over 50% of the over 50 mg of total alkaloids/ 100 grams fresh)" being 25+mg per 100g fresh. Where mescaline is 5-25mg per 100g fresh and from my understanding N-Methylmescaline would be the same values if present?


Knowing what the active alkaloid in my experiences would be interesting but isn't worth pursing IMO for my final purpose which is religious usage. Extractions and testing other methods are mostly a way to have a better relationship with the plant and increase the possibility of self sustainability by selecting cultivars and best growth conditions for my purpose. Alternative extraction methods are just a means to reduce exposure to certain products and vapors and increase ease of safe dosage.
 
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All I'm saying is that you can't really make firm conclusions about the chemical identity of a substance based on subjective experience.

I've also added the Wiki - Cactus Alkaloids, K. Trout 2013 (Safe 2018 version) resource, where you'll be able to see that there has, as yet, been no record of N-methylmescaline occurring in trichocereus cacti.
N-Methylmescaline has been reported from:

Cactaceae

Gymnocalycium achirasense Till & Schatzl
Štarha et al. 1998 (0.00013% [± 0.00001] by fresh wt.)
gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium anisitsii Br. & R.
Štarha 1996 (Less than 0.0001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms.

Gymnocalycium asterium Ito
Štarha et al. 1998 (0.00031% [± 0.00004] by fresh wt.) gc,
gc-ms

Gymnocalycium boszingianum Schütz
Štarha 1996 (Less than 0.0001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms.

Gymnocalycium calochlorum Ito
Štarha 1996 (Less than 0.0001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms.

Gymnocalycium carminanthum Borth & Koop
Štarha et al. 1998 (trace) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium chubutense Speg.
Štarha et al. 1997 (Between 0.0001% and 0.001% by fresh
wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium comarapense
Štarha 1995a (Less than 0.001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium curvispinum Frič
Štarha 1996 (Less than 0.0001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms.

Gymnocalycium delaetii Backbg.
Štarha 1996 (Less than 0.0001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms.

Gymnocalycium denudatum (L. & O.) Pfeiff.
Štarha et al. 1998 (0.00008% [± 0.00001] by fresh wt.) gc,
gc-ms

Gymnocalycium gibbosum (Haw.) Pfeiff.
Štarha et al. 1997 (Between 0.0001% and 0.001% by fresh
wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium horridispinum Frank
Štarha 1996 (Less than 0.0001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms.

Gymnocalycium marsoneri (Frič) Ito
Štarha et al. 1997 (Between 0.0001% and 0.001% by fresh
wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium mesopotamicum Kiessling
Štarha et al. 1998 (trace) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium monvillei (Lem.) Br. & R.
Štarha et al. 1997 (Less than 0.0001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium moserianum Schutz
Štarha et al. 1998 (0.00151% [± 0.00015] by fresh wt.) gc,
gc-ms

Gymnocalycium netrelianum Britton & Rose
Štarha 1995a (Less than 0.001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium nigriareolatum Backeberg
Štarha et al. 1998 (0.00006% [± 0.00001] by fresh wt.) gc,
gc-ms

Gymnocalycium oenanthemum Backeberg
Štarha et al. 1997 (Less than 0.0001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium paraguayense Schutz
Štarha et al. 1998 (0.00041% [± 0.0001] by fresh wt.) gc,
gc-ms

Gymnocalycium pflanzii Werd.
Štarha 1996 (Less than 0.0001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms.

Gymnocalycium quehlianum (Haage) Berg.
Štarha et al. 1997 (Less than 0.0001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium ragonesii Cast.
Štarha et al. 1998 (trace) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium riograndense Cardenas
Štarha 1995a (Less than 0.001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium stellatum Speg.
Štarha et al. 1997 (Between 0.0001% and 0.001% by fresh
wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium striglianum
Štarha 1995a (“readily apparent” at around 0.001% by fresh
wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium triacanthum Backeberg
Štarha et al. 1998 (trace) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium uebelmannianum Rausch
Štarha et al. 1997 (Less than 0.0001% by fresh wt.) gc, gc-ms

Gymnocalycium vatteri Buin.
Štarha 1996 (Between 0.0001% and 0.001% by fresh wt.)
gc, gc-ms.

Lophophora diffusa (Croizat) H.Bravo
Bruhn & Holmstedt 1974 (trace) gc-ms. (Did not observe
mescaline to be present.)
Štarha 1997 (0.1% of total alkaloid fraction) gc-gc-ms.

Lophophora diffusa var. koehresii Říha
Štarha & Kuchyna 1996 (0.07% [± 0.02] of the total alkaloid
content) gc, gc-ms.

Štarha 1997 (0.1% of total alkaloid fraction; citing Štarha
& Kuchyna 1996) gc-gc-ms.

Lophophora fricii Habermann
Štarha 1997 (0.1% & 0.1% of total alkaloid fraction) gc-gc-
ms. [ The 2 figures refer respectively to GR 1086 & PR 3293; both
were cultivated]

Lophophora jourdaniana Habermann
Štarha 1997 (3.2% of total alkaloid fraction) gc, gc-ms

Lophophora sp. var. Vieska (Viesca), Mex.
Štarha & Kuchyna 1996 (0.09% [± 0.01] of the total alkaloid
content) gc, gc-ms.
Štarha 1997 (0.1% of total alkaloid fraction; citing Štarha
& Kuchyna 1996) gc, gc-ms

Lophophora williamsii
Späth & Bruck 1937. mp, mmp
Lundström 1971b (0.24% dry wt. i.e. 3% of 8% total alkaloid
content) gc-ms

Pachycereus pringlei
Shulgin (personal communication) gc-ms.

Pelecyphora aselliformis Ehrenberg
Neal et al. 1972 (trace) glc, ms, tlc.
[Not detected by Štarha 1994]

Pelecyphora pseudopectinata Backeberg
Štarha et al. 1999a (1.11% [± 0.13] of total alkaloid fraction
of over 500 mg total alkaloids per 100 gm of fresh plant)
gc, gc-ms

Turbinicarpus lophophoroides (Werd.) Buxb & Backbg
Štarha et al. 1999a (0.51% [± 0.11] of total alkaloid fraction
of over 500 mg total alkaloids per 100 gm of fresh plant)
gc, gc-ms

Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele var. krainzianus (Frank)
Glass & Foster
Štarha et al. 1999a (3.27% [± 0.09] of total alkaloid fraction
of 250-500 mg total alkaloids per 100 gm of fresh plant)
gc, gc-ms C 12 H 17 NO 4
MW 239.271

Turbinicarpus schmiedickeanus (Böd.) Buxbaum & Backeberg
Štarha et al. 1999a (1.02% [± 0.21] of total alkaloid fraction
of 100-250 mg total alkaloids per 100 gm of fresh plant)
gc, gc-ms

Turbinicarpus schmiedickeanus var. flaviflorus (Frank &
Lau) Glass & Foster
Štarha et al. 1999a (Trace detected) gc, gc-ms

Turbinicarpus schmiedickeanus var. schwarzii (Shurly)
Glass & Foster
Štarha et al. 1999a (0.98% [± 0.24] of total alkaloid fraction
of 250-500 mg total alkaloids per 100 gm of fresh plant)
gc, gc-ms
Of course, research in the years since then may have added new data so I will have a bit of a delve into the literature just to check. It would be interesting if you have found N-Me-Mesc in your trich extract, but as I say, we can't jump to conclusions over that.
While Shulgin reported the compound to be inactive, this isn't directly comparable with your trial using your unknown material in combination with harmala alkaloids, IIRC.
Knowing what the active alkaloid in my experiences would be interesting but isn't worth pursing IMO for my final purpose which is religious usage.
I guess the process of firmly establishing the identity of your material is rather inconvenient for you, so your position is quite understandable. I feel I wouldn't be the only one who'd be interested in knowing what you've managed to extract, however! The very fact that it's active is of some considerable interest.
 
N-dimethylmescaline is found in trichocereus. But you are right that I can’t state outright that it is this or that and maoi also may affect the activity level. But I can say I’m fairly certain it is not mescaline due to duration and effects on my body.

Here shows n-methylmescaline
 
Actually the thing that may be causing the activity is the maoi?

Maybe someone can test Cuzco extract with maoi and see if they get stimulant like activity?
 
N-dimethylmescaline is found in trichocereus. But you are right that I can’t state outright that it is this or that and maoi also may affect the activity level. But I can say I’m fairly certain it is not mescaline due to duration and effects on my body.

Here shows n-methylmescaline
I recall that article coming out, now that you come to mention it. The cactus alkaloid data will benefit from an update, indeed.
Actually the thing that may be causing the activity is the maoi?

Maybe someone can test Cuzco extract with maoi and see if they get stimulant like activity?
The intensely stimulating activity I noted a few posts above was almost certainly linked to my harmala intake, so your hypothesis here may well be plausible. Thinking about it, I remember getting sweaty towards the end of it too!
 
I recall that article coming out, now that you come to mention it. The cactus alkaloid data will benefit from an update, indeed.

The intensely stimulating activity I noted a few posts above was almost certainly linked to my harmala intake, so your hypothesis here may well be plausible. Thinking about it, I remember getting sweaty towards the end of it too!
My harmala intake is almost daily but I guess another method you or someone interested in seeing what MAY be extracted is using exhausted Cielo material and allow it to dry completely with some more calcium hydroxide maybe? When dry pull with isopropanol and salt with benzoic acid.
Maybe the profile will not be the same however if activity is similar maybe others can study further. 130mg Benzoate salt from the isopropyl with 200mg harmalas taken together is my reference. Everyone is different but harmalas last exactly 4h with me but activity of the extract is 16h+ constant stimulant effect
 
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