Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

Reply to thread

Message

I completely agree. In fact the only time I have achieved these satori like states are when I have been actively meditating during the experience. Progressively letting go of every finer parts of myself. In the end though I personally believe these tools can only take us so far.

I suspect there really is something to a mind calmed from years of mediation in seclusion... Just a few years watching the mind and you begin to realize just how much of what you think about is influenced by the world around you... We are the environment. The crazy thing is we have science literally proving it today and yet people still just don't quite grasp it...or want to grasp it.

I often times substitute witness and awareness. However, awareness still implies an awareness of something. I'd go so far as to say awareness is THE fundamental particle of the universe if you will. There is literally nothing in the entire universe that exists outside of awareness. Two uncharged particles in a vacuum are aware of each other. Electrons are aware of other charged entities... The very foundation and fabric of the universe is awareness between things...

What happens when even the awareness is dissolved? Science has shown that subatomic particles effectively dance in and out of existence. What exactly is non existence? I think I made a compelling argument that existence is essentially awareness right down to the most fundamental level. What is the other side of the coin? Where do these particles 'jump' to.. Personally I don't think it's a place. To use Buddhist words ( sorry they are the ones I know best at the point) it is the unbecome. Nirvana being the end of becoming... If becoming is rooted in awareness then perhaps unbecoming is simply the absence of this awareness as well?

I wonder.. I sometimes agree with this... and sometimes I wonder if there is a subtle difference? Either way I think just getting people to wake up to the fact that what they call 'themselves' is nothing more than an arbitrary division in the universal whole would be a phenomenal thing. If there is something past that well who honestly knows. I certainly haven't achieved any sort of experience like this though I have experienced feeling utterly one with the universe... awareness fully in tact. Knowing simultaneously the vibration of every atom in my body and the interactions of galaxies countless light years away. It was beyond anything I could fathom.. and yet I was still aware of it all...aware like being aware of myself when I look at my hand. What if the awareness was dropped and the entire process of becoming dissipated like a candle flame burning out?   It truly would be non dual in the ultimate sense.

Buddhists seem adamant that there is a difference. The best explanation I can give for that difference is what I outlined above.    Whether it is a real difference between the two schools or simply divisions in the minds of students is not really for me to say.   In the end though I think it's the experience of it that counts far more than the intellectual understanding of it...though the intellectual understanding does lead to some radical changes in people.

Peace brother.
BTW I love this thread and the conversation that have unfolded within it.

<blockquote data-quote="joedirt" data-source="post: 3688517" data-attributes="member: 6370">I completely agree. In fact the only time I have achieved these satori like states are when I have been actively meditating during the experience.&nbsp; Progressively letting go of every finer parts of myself.&nbsp; In the end though I personally believe these tools can only take us so far.&nbsp; I suspect there really is something to a mind calmed from years of mediation in seclusion...&nbsp; Just a few years watching the mind and you begin to realize just how much of what you think about is influenced by the world around you... We are the environment.&nbsp; The crazy thing is we have science literally proving it today and yet people still just don&#039;t quite grasp it...or want to grasp it.&nbsp; I often times substitute witness and awareness.&nbsp; However, awareness still implies an awareness of something.&nbsp; I&#039;d go so far as to say awareness is THE fundamental particle of the universe if you will.&nbsp; There is literally nothing in the entire universe that exists outside of awareness.&nbsp; Two uncharged particles in a vacuum are aware of each other.&nbsp; Electrons are aware of other charged entities...&nbsp; The very foundation and fabric of the universe is awareness between things...&nbsp; What happens when even the awareness is dissolved?&nbsp; Science has shown that subatomic particles effectively dance in and out of existence.&nbsp; What exactly is non existence?&nbsp; I think I made a compelling argument that existence is essentially awareness right down to the most fundamental level.&nbsp; What is the other side of the coin?&nbsp; Where do these particles &#039;jump&#039; to..&nbsp; Personally&nbsp; I don&#039;t think it&#039;s a place.&nbsp; To use Buddhist words ( sorry they are the ones I know best at the point) it is the unbecome.&nbsp; Nirvana being the end of becoming... If becoming is rooted in awareness then perhaps unbecoming is simply the absence of this awareness as well?&nbsp;&nbsp; I wonder..&nbsp; I sometimes agree with this... and sometimes I wonder if there is a subtle difference?&nbsp; Either way I think just getting people to wake up to the fact that what they call &#039;themselves&#039; is nothing more than an arbitrary division in the universal whole would be a phenomenal thing.&nbsp; If there is something past that well who honestly knows.&nbsp; I certainly haven&#039;t achieved any sort of experience like this though I have experienced feeling utterly one with the universe... awareness fully in tact.&nbsp; Knowing simultaneously the vibration of every atom in my body and the interactions of galaxies countless light years away.&nbsp; It was beyond anything I could fathom.. and yet I was still aware of it all...aware like being aware of myself when I look at my hand.&nbsp; What if the awareness was dropped and the entire process of becoming dissipated like a candle flame burning out?&nbsp;&nbsp; It truly would be non dual in the ultimate sense. Buddhists seem adamant that there is a difference.&nbsp; The best explanation I can give for that difference is what I outlined above.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Whether it is a real difference between the two schools or simply divisions in the minds of students is not really for me to say.&nbsp;&nbsp; In the end though I think it&#039;s the experience of it that counts far more than the intellectual understanding of it...though the intellectual understanding does lead to some radical changes in people.&nbsp; <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />Peace brother.&nbsp; BTW I love this thread and the conversation that have unfolded within it.&nbsp; <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="😁" title="Beaming face with smiling eyes&nbsp; &nbsp; :grin:" src="/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/nexus/unicode/64/1f601.png" data-shortname=":grin:" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="joedirt, post: 3688517, member: 6370"] I completely agree. In fact the only time I have achieved these satori like states are when I have been actively meditating during the experience. Progressively letting go of every finer parts of myself. In the end though I personally believe these tools can only take us so far. I suspect there really is something to a mind calmed from years of mediation in seclusion... Just a few years watching the mind and you begin to realize just how much of what you think about is influenced by the world around you... We are the environment. The crazy thing is we have science literally proving it today and yet people still just don't quite grasp it...or want to grasp it. I often times substitute witness and awareness. However, awareness still implies an awareness of something. I'd go so far as to say awareness is THE fundamental particle of the universe if you will. There is literally nothing in the entire universe that exists outside of awareness. Two uncharged particles in a vacuum are aware of each other. Electrons are aware of other charged entities... The very foundation and fabric of the universe is awareness between things... What happens when even the [b]awareness[/b] is dissolved? Science has shown that subatomic particles effectively dance in and out of existence. What exactly is non existence? I think I made a compelling argument that existence is essentially awareness right down to the most fundamental level. What is the other side of the coin? Where do these particles 'jump' to.. Personally I don't think it's a place. To use Buddhist words ( sorry they are the ones I know best at the point) it is the unbecome. Nirvana being the end of becoming... If becoming is rooted in awareness then perhaps unbecoming is simply the absence of this awareness as well? I wonder.. I sometimes agree with this... and sometimes I wonder if there is a subtle difference? Either way I think just getting people to wake up to the fact that what they call 'themselves' is nothing more than an arbitrary division in the universal whole would be a phenomenal thing. If there is something past that well who honestly knows. I certainly haven't achieved any sort of experience like this though I have experienced feeling utterly one with the universe... awareness fully in tact. Knowing simultaneously the vibration of every atom in my body and the interactions of galaxies countless light years away. It was beyond anything I could fathom.. and yet I was still aware of it all...aware like being aware of myself when I look at my hand. What if the awareness was dropped and the entire process of becoming dissipated like a candle flame burning out? It truly would be non dual in the ultimate sense. Buddhists seem adamant that there is a difference. The best explanation I can give for that difference is what I outlined above. Whether it is a real difference between the two schools or simply divisions in the minds of students is not really for me to say. In the end though I think it's the experience of it that counts far more than the intellectual understanding of it...though the intellectual understanding does lead to some radical changes in people. ;) Peace brother. BTW I love this thread and the conversation that have unfolded within it. 😁 [/QUOTE]