• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

Am I missing something ?

Migrated topic.
deweeb

deweeb

Rising Star
I need some enlightenment here , I have been pondering a nagging question over the years that just won't go away .

For over the past fifty years I have been deeply involved in "spiritual" groups , bbs , ashrams ,religious organizations and just about anything else to do with "enlightenment" . Pretty much been there done that got the tee shirt.
I am the kind of person that jumps into things with both feet including the kitchen sink .

Look back , heck what for , gotta move ahead , after all life is a journey . There are some who say I am a intense fanatic , though I have become quite laid back compared to my early years .

I love cutting edge stuff , and chase it until I find all that it offers. There have been many other seekers that I have encountered on this road , some became disillusioned or got tired of the quest and just ended up following the status quot . There have been phonies and everything in between , there are also many who are still genuinely seeking , like myself , for answers .

It is to this group , I turn to ponder this question .

Looking at the past one hundred years or so , with the huge insurgent of psychedelic discoveries and usage by hundreds of thousands of people , you would expect to see a deeper understanding/and or positive change of those involved . But by far and large , those who have been "enlightened" to one degree or another , seem to be no different then those engrossed in the materialistic system of day to day life .

Strassman in his book DMT The Spirit Molecule , noticed and asked the same question . Why no lasting long term effects ? The community is filled with back bitting , envy , strife , power plays and god knows everything else under the sun ,just like any other group , why ?

I would expect the opposite to be true , love ,joy , peace , harmony , acceptance , and so forth , wouldn't you ?
If an in depth survey was taken , where those who have taken enthogens/hallucinogens compared to those who haven't , I doubt there would be any significant difference between the two groups . At least this is what I have experinced over the years .

Don't get me wrong , I am not here to judge or point a finger at anyone , it is a burning desire to understand why and a question that I ask about myself all the time . Have I changed as a result of taking drugs , if so how , and in what way ?

It breaks my heart to see the disharmony amongst a group of people who should be able to at least "discern" that we are really one and act like it .

What you you think , am I missing something , or are my expectations/observations the real problem ?
 
Whatever else we are, we are mammals. Can't escape from that. We are here because our ancestors had certain traits that enabled them to survive AT THE EXPENSE of the other individuals in the population.

We are transcendent only because we can imagine the possibility of escaping our mammalian heritage. This is both a curse and a blessing.
 
Not everyone can be Gandhi buddy.
For the most part people dont want elightenment. Thats why men like Gandhi are rare and men like Pope John Paul II are everywhere. Same with the psychedelic community. Id say 80% of it is just for partying.
Youll only find enlightenment in psychedelics if thats what your looking for and are willing to "tear open the veil" and judge yourself. Most people are not willing to do that.
Ive always had emotional/mental problems and started searching my inner soul for help at a young age. My father was schizophrenic and I sometimes think that may have some cause of it and it makes me worry about having a child of my own. I first started reading mainstream religious text. Personally Ive only seen brainwashing and slavery when it comes to most religion. Then I started reading just about every philosophy book I could find and I found some solace in men like Plato and Bacon and some stoic writings but realized I could only find the answers myself by experience. Eventually I stumbled across shamanism and spiritual elightenment through psychedelic research and have found it to have helped me tremendously. It made me start to question my own beliefs and actions. I can honestly say I would be in jail right now if it wasnt for psychedelics.
Sorry I cant help you but the only way youll find answers is too question your own beliefs.
 
you are who you are....no entheogen is going to change that. that being said, if who you are is a soulful person on a quest to find oneness and "enlightenment", you will be more prone to learn from your "teachers" those very things. intent is everything. some people don't want to change. change is scary. there are no "quick-fixes" when dealing with surrender of the ego... but if you're ready, DMT is a truly profound opportunity to experience (even if only for a brief moment) what that feels like. integrating that into the here and now is your "homework".

class dismissed. :D

love and gratitude!
 
Enlightenment is just another way to accept the inevitable crap in life and be happy about it. For example:

If take a shit in your pants on accident you can either say goddamn it I took a shit in my pants this sucks it ruins my day. Or if you were enlightened you could say oh well its just a shit in my pants who needs pants anyway and then be on with your day.

Its a simple psychological tool nothing more.
 
Enlightenment is a really difficult, complex, and virtually worthless word IMHO. It appears to me that those who know of it (truly) or even those that may maintain it (if that even happens) do not make a big deal about it. They guide those of us who are seeking in ways that we are unaware. They offer pragmatism, not astral projection. Their advice is to subtle to recognize as genius. Thus we do not begin worshipping.

There are those people, and you sound like one of them, who are looking to grow in understanding. The belief that there is something beyond what you are in the present moment is powerful. But it is said to be false.

From my experience with people interested in entheogens, they are more often "psychonauts" rather than anything else. It doesn't make them better, it doesn't make them worse. I take motrin for headaches and some take entheogens to work out non-phyical issues. Everyone appears to be progressing. It is at a snails pace as far as my own progression is concerned, but progression nonetheless.

My advice (and it is worth nothing) is to give up on enlightenment and simply do what you know is best. Pretty simple, really.

One last point- those individuals who I've met who strike me as extremely mature rarely have much interest in entheogens.

{h}
 
weissewolf said:
Not everyone can be Gandhi buddy.
For the most part people dont want elightenment. Thats why men like Gandhi are rare and men like Pope John Paul II are everywhere. Same with the psychedelic community. Id say 80% of it is just for partying.
Youll only find enlightenment in psychedelics if thats what your looking for and are willing to "tear open the veil" and judge yourself. Most people are not willing to do that.
Ive always had emotional/mental problems and started searching my inner soul for help at a young age. My father was schizophrenic and I sometimes think that may have some cause of it and it makes me worry about having a child of my own. I first started reading mainstream religious text. Personally Ive only seen brainwashing and slavery when it comes to most religion. Then I started reading just about every philosophy book I could find and I found some solace in men like Plato and Bacon and some stoic writings but realized I could only find the answers myself by experience. Eventually I stumbled across shamanism and spiritual elightenment through psychedelic research and have found it to have helped me tremendously. It made me start to question my own beliefs and actions. I can honestly say I would be in jail right now if it wasnt for psychedelics.
Sorry I cant help you but the only way youll find answers is too question your own beliefs.
Click to expand...

Good post weissewolf. Though I agree, I think the original poster was referring more to the people who hadn't done that yet.
 
deedle-doo said:
Whatever else we are, we are mammals. Can't escape from that. We are here because our ancestors had certain traits that enabled them to survive AT THE EXPENSE of the other individuals in the population.

We are transcendent only because we can imagine the possibility of escaping our mammalian heritage. This is both a curse and a blessing.
Click to expand...

I think this post says it all. Just because we can think abstractly, it doesn't mean we are above nature and instinct. It is only natural for people to maximize their power and use their favorable traits to obtain what they want whenever possible. It'll be a long time before we are past this. A long, long time.
 
Enlightenment, clearly, is not something that can be defined. Too, it is not something that is discussed amoung those who are truly enlightened.

I think that phsycadellics allow us to taste enlightenment, to sense it only for a moment.

Choosing to do something with that in our normal state of consiousness however, requires an entirely differnent discipline.
 
The Infinite Abyss said:
Enlightenment, clearly, is not something that can be defined. Too, it is not something that is discussed amoung those who are truly enlightened.

I think that phsycadellics allow us to taste enlightenment, to sense it only for a moment.

Choosing to do something with that in our normal state of consiousness however, requires an entirely differnent discipline.
Click to expand...

Infinitely true..
 
The Infinite Abyss said:
Choosing to do something with that in our normal state of consiousness however, requires an entirely different discipline.
Click to expand...

Precisely.

I tend to view it like so (in the sense of... glimpses of enlightenment achievable through entheogens) :

It is as if, when we take entheogens in order to find... whatever we want to find (our intent)... we, as humble little souls possessing minor "enlightened knowledge" are getting thrown into a PhD program with members (entities) of much higher intellect discussing, and often times attempting to SHARE, such profound things (ideas, truths, KNOWLEDGE, anything and everything of benefit to any one of us) with each other, and we are attempting to make sense of it all, to find resonance, in hopes of slowly becoming what you hope to be, or achieve (once again, your intent).

When we are thrown (maybe catapulted is a better way to put it 8) ) into this program, we are only able to [SOMETIMES] gain bits and pieces of a bigger picture. By continually using this method to find 'enlightenment' (once again, very general term here), we use these bits and pieces to slowly accumulate knowledge here and there, by doing our best to integrate what we perceive (thanks to entheogens) of this incredibly profound PhD program. This method is akin to trying to learn calculus with only basic math skills (2nd or 3rd grade level).

To achieve such profound knowledge and 'enlightenment' in our daily lives [without the help of any entheogens], we must, at a snail pace, take many, many classes, to ultimately reach this "PhD program". We then are able to fully understand the courseload, as it is no longer a courseload... but rather your life, encompassing every aspect of it. This is when true knowledge is gained.

I'm simply using education as a metaphor.

'Coatl was right... all we have are metaphors [to describe DMT experiences]

:)
 
I disagree that it has not been proven that certain entheogens have long lasting positive effects.

Look at the studies done on Peyote and Ayahuasca... in both cases it has been proven that they do in fact have long lasting positive effects.

Proof!!!

Ayahuasca Healing in Peru Written by Kira Salak

Ayahuasca Healing in Peru Written by Kira Salak
www.kirasalak.com

Erowid Ayahuasca Vault : Scientific Investigation of Ayahuasca, McKenna, Callaway, Grob 1998

A journal article overview of science done on ayahausca
www.erowid.org

Long Trip for Psychedelic Drugs

Psychedelic drugs are inching their way slowly but surely toward prescription status in the United States, thanks to a group of persistent scientists who believe drugs like ecstasy and psilocybin can help people with terminal cancer, obsessive-compulsive disorder and post-traumatic stress...
www.wired.com www.wired.com

Peyote Won't Rot Your Brain

Unlike some other drugs, the favorite hallucinogen of Native Americans and adventurous city folk doesn't appear to cause long-term cognitive damage. It might even be good for you. By Randy Dotinga.
www.wired.com www.wired.com
 
Strassman in his book DMT The Spirit Molecule , noticed and asked the same question . Why no lasting long term effects ? The community is filled with back bitting , envy , strife , power plays and god knows everything else under the sun ,just like any other group , why ?
Click to expand...

Back biting, envy, strife..? I don't see much of that in the Nexus, it's all good vibes and supersmart people!

Strassman's research was far too short to say anything worthwhile about long term benefits. Working with psychedelics is just that: work, it requires years of discipline and dedication to get the most out of it. Also, putting the lessons learnt into practice can be quite daunting. It's all about integration!
All aspects of a person should develop simultaneously, not just the 'higher aspects'. Even an 'enlightened' person can develop neuroses or ego inflation (especially gurus/teachers). See Ken Wilber's writings.

Well said 'Coatl, there's plenty of evidence there are benefits! But it's no magic pill. It helped me because I'm basically very thick-headed and stubborn; I became much more openminded after witnessing other universes. For some people, breaking open the head works very well ;)

Also, my obsession with this so-called Enlightenment is gone. It's a myth. Enlightenment comes in all kinds of flavors, levels, large and small... it goes on and on, it's never ready. It's not an end-state.
 
deweeb said:
Why no lasting long term effects ? The community is filled with back bitting , envy , strife , power plays and god knows everything else under the sun ,just like any other group , why ?

I would expect the opposite to be true , love ,joy , peace , harmony , acceptance , and so forth , wouldn't you ?
Click to expand...
No? Why would you expect that?
 
Deweeb, it sounds like you've FINALLY realised that the whole 'enlightenment' thing is just another spiritual CON!

Stop searching. Everything you need is already under your nose- inside you to be more precise- the ability to be happy. To enjoy the moment free from worry or other preoccupations. And SWIM has found DMT and mescaline to have helped him to deprogram himself of much of the fear and anxiety that instinct and experience had laid onto him, along with equally important conventional learning in philosophy and psychology. No new-age babble necessary whatsoever, these groups are a red herring in his eyes, just more mist in front of the eyes. So don't feel down that joining all these groups did not get you where you wanted to be.
 
Read the "Tao Teh Ching" by Lao Tzu and other Taoist works.

And I say again... there is STRONG evidence that Peyote, Ayahuasca and 'Shrooms all have positive and long lasting beneficial effects and little or no negative effects.

However... this evidence does not exist for MDMA, LSD-25 or other, more recently discovered psychoactives.

Also the evidence that the traditional botanical entheogens have a long term positive effects on individuals and entire communities has also been exhibited... just google "Native American Peyote Alcoholism" and see what all comes up!

Also the facts that most entheogens are illegal make them less attractive to "good" people.... how often do you find a person who is intelligent enough to say "fuck laws I can think for myself" but also responsible and caring enough to be a truly "good" or "enlightened" person? No often... if entheogens were legal the positive effects would be so much more obvious!
 
I'd just like to share some of my recent insight to possibly answer your question:
if perception is reality, and like attracts like, It could be that the reason you see all that stuff in the community (personally, I don't) is that you're attracting it and then experiencing it. Im not saying im better than you, far be it from me to make such a sweeping statement. Im just a regular guy, an average joe. probably a bit of a scumbum musicbag to be honest!
 
Im guessing its mostly perception but a good combination of what gets said, and what doesnt, what can be said, and what cant, and certain degrees of seeming disharmony which may really just be dissonance between nomenclatures and belief systems.
If I had some more specific examples to go on my hypothesis might be a bit more accurate or encompassing.
maybe its just that disharmony and drama, scream a lot louder than peace and understanding. So it makes sense to me that it is what may seem to be the majority or the overall vibe in any given circle/community of thought. Somewhere between the silent listener and the boisterous ego, lay a truth that cannot be said, which is probably why there is so much to talk about using these linear languages.

Usually the nature of forming beliefs, somewhat filters off other possibilities. Perhaps if you suspend your judgement of this or any other situation, you might see it in a different light. Who knows. I dont even really know specifically what you/we are talking about here, so if this sounds off subject, just put it in the "circle file".

Something McKenna said, that can apply to our 'human' perception on many levels, is that if you walked around a corner and saw a woman giving birth and you had never seen it before, you would most likely think things to the effect of distress disharmony chaos etc. with all the blood and screaming. Perhaps what we percieve as disharmony, is really just the growing pains of a larger process. Perhaps we dont have all the details to make it an accurate assumption of what is really going on.

As for the general question of long lasting effects, I think it really depends on the person. The person taking, and the person deciding what a lasting effect is or when it should manifest etc etc.
If they are taking it for purely recreation, it would make sense there would be no lasting effect. But I could still beg to differ. since, to me, I think "lasting effect" is relative and difficult to discern; someone may still not understand in 2007 what happened or what the importance or lasting effect was in 2001's DMT trip until 2009 during a day dream or meditation persay, so its a tricky situation which I think always has lasting effect, even if too subtle to notice, afterall, it is the subtle that rules the dense.
Keep in mind this comes from someone who is convinced that the lasting effect applies to before and after having physically used a psychedelic. :lol:
 
Back
Top Bottom