An attempt to understand

[Psilocin Dreams]

With all the diffrent teks there are obviously many various ways to extract, and an array of solvents and bases and washes to utilize. My basic understanding is that whatever the solvents and bases are the formula dosent change much. My curiosity is this. Say i use the Q21Q21 vinegar/lime tek as a structure to do an extraction, can i simply replace the lime basification with NaOH? Or is the lime nessisary to this tek for something other than being food safe?

With all the reading ive been doing i have come to better understand how the A/B process works and based on what ive read while A/B extractions seem to take longer the general concensus seems to be that they are better than STB extractions (correct me if im wrong with an explanation as to why please). Now ive done about 4 extractions using the Q21Q21 Vinegar/Lime/Naptha version of the tek using D-Limo after the naptha pulls and have had great sucess and i plan to do some more with this tek in the reverse using D-Limo first. Ive got plenty to play with so i plan to try out a few diffrent things, but my main question is this.... Being ive only used the one tek i have many choices, Q21Q21 stated that he/she dosent use that tek anymore but dosent offer up a reason nor does he/she state what tek they prefer and why. Maybe im asking for too many explanations but if i dont know why something is i cant fully understand it.

 

[Eden]

Q21Q21's method is a dry tek, and replacing the lime with NaOH would most likely be disasterous. NaOH is a very strong base and works best when used in solution. If you have limonene and want to use lye, the BLAB is worth looking into.

 

[Psilocin Dreams]

I probably should have noted that i did make the observation that if i added straight NaOH crystals to the rootbark and attempted to then mix it all together i would have a problem. But if i made a solution of it first would it change the way the tek works as well? Or can it only be used by first seperating the acidic solution then combining the 2? My main reasons for asking all this is just to better understand what im doing so i can try to play with the diffrent teks befor wasting materials as they arent exactly cheap.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

If this is going to be your first a/b, why not follow one of the established teks rather than modifying a drytek for the purpose? From some of the questions you're asking, it sounds like you have some reading to do on the a/b process. Here are a couple ones worth looking at:

Marsofold's Tek - this is a great "classic" a/b extraction using lye and naptha (you could add limo pulls after the naptha pulls)

The Big Leisurely A/B or BLAB - this is a newer a/b that uses lye and limonene and is also quite good.

 

[Eden]

Making a solution first would be just fine. These teks all work on the same priciples.

First, with the addition of an acid, the dmt is pulled from the bark material into solution.
This can be done with heat in a relatively short time (Q21Q21) or over a long period of time (BLAB).

The soup or mix is then basified. Lime in this case for the dry tek and lye for the wet tek.

The non-polar wash is then preformed by which the dmt and other actives migrate into the solvent.

The dmt can then by precipitated by temp changes or with added solutions (FASI for the BLAB)

 

[Psilocin Dreams]

Well this wont be my first extration and what ive got from Eden is that its best to use the Lye in a wet Tek where the basic solution is added to the acidic solution after its been seperated from the plant material but can also be used by adding it to the soup mix. Im gonna assume that this is just because dealing with the seperated solutions in a jar is easier than having to mix such a caustic substance with the plant matter. Is that a safe assumption?

Oh i would like to add ive read over the BLAB and while it certainly appears to be a very simple Tek, its not one im too intrested in. The length of time and the fact that i have no idea where to get fumeric acid or 99%IPA keep me from being intrested in that one.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

You don't need to have the BLAB take as long as it does in the wiki. You can do three acid cooks of the bark (instead of a multi-day soak) and if you start in the morning, have the acidifying stage complete by the afternoon/early evening. Also, you do not need IPA or fumaric acid. You can salt the dmt out of the limonene with vinegar and convert that dmt acetate to freebase with heat via double boiler (it's pretty easy).

 

[Psilocin Dreams]

Ok gotcha on that as far as shortening it down. and thank you for the substitute to the fumaric acid, guess i didnt quite notice the BLAB was just salting the DMT out of the Limo as i have done this using the Q21Q21 tek.... that just shows my chemistry expierence i guess.

Thanx for your time but id still like to know why Q21Q21 dosent use his own tek anymore and what tek he prefers to it. Mainly i want to know this because the ease and yield of that tek IMO are fantastic. :? I would just ask myself why but all i can come up with is the ammount of Naptha needed is quite large but can be shrunk by doing rotating pulls from the freezer to the soup or solvent right?

 

[Psilocin Dreams]

On another note, something else i ment to ask. Some teks call for a mix of water and vinegar. Now q21q21 stated that using this mix makes the tek take longer. Does it affect yield at all or is it simply that when using lye you dont want all that extra acid in the mix?

 

[Eden]

If you are satisfied with the tek there is no reason you need to switch.

I personally find wet teks to be much easier to handle in regards to the NPS washes. With the solvent in direct contact with the mix as in dry teks, it is much harder to fully remove the solvent without contamination. More solvent is needed as well.

Do what works for you. Experimenting with different teks will let you find your preferred method. Plus, who doesn't love extracting? :d

 

[Psilocin Dreams]

Not necesarily trying to switch teks its just the only one i have had the chance to do and with as much fun as i have extracting id like to try some diffrent teks/chemicles. Its just with my limited knowledge i enjoy reading and asking questions about the subject matter just as much as i enjoy puting to practice what information i gather. Ive never just blundered into something, ive always felt its best to gather as many opinions and facts on whatever it is im wanting to learn or do befor i dive in. So far so good and with the 4 pounds of material i just aqiured id say i have plenty to experiment with

Yes indeed who dosent love extracting :?: :!:

 

[BananaForeskin]

I've personally found that it IS possible to use lye instead of lime in Q21Q21's tek, but of course you just have to use a lot less lye than you would lime... just enough to get it to ph 14. And why do you consider it easier to do the NPS with a non-drytek? With dryteks it seems so simple, you just pour off the solvent while the basified rootbark stays in more or less the same place. It takes a day or two for ALL of the solvent to make its way out of the rootbark, but IMO it is so much easier than, say, Marsofold's tek which requires some very precise turkey-basting skills to get all of the solvent out.

 

[Psilocin Dreams]

Well bananna i would have to agree with you on that. Turkey basting is a pain in the ass. But now that i know i can use lye with the Q21Q21 tek i have no real need to change teks as i like that tek alot. Have you noticed a better yield useing lye verse lime or is it all the same in the end?

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Interesting, I hear a lot of people say that turkey basting is really hard. Personally I have found it to be an incredibly simple and easy method. For those of you saying basting is difficult, are you using it in conjunction with a container that has a neck (and thus adds greater depth to your nps) or mason-jar style containers that make it akin to skimming BP's oil out of the gulf?

 

[Eden]

I also consider basting a very simple method. The slim neck of the container is a must, of course.

My reasoning for the NPS washes comes mainly from the mixing with the basified soup. I find it much easier to mix one liquid with another, promoting a very clear distinction between the two layers. Thoroughly combining the solvent with a "dry" mix always seems inefficient to me and I always fear the solvent that has penetrated the mass to then be stuck there. The effort to then separate the solvent makes it much easier for contaminants to be pulled as well.

Just personal preference I guess. Much of it stemming from frustrations as a lime/cactus sludge thoroughly soaks up massive amounts of limonene. :?

 

[BananaForeskin]

Well, I had a mason jar, but there was a lot of messy pouring into a beaker followed by even messier basting attempts... I think if I had a high-quality baster it would make things easier, but I was constantly taunted by the small layer of NPS that remained on top of the basified root bark... I never had soaking problems, because my basified bark from Q21Q21's tek is always too wet to be absorbent. This may be because I use lye instead of lime.

Anyway, as for using lye with Q21Q21's tek, just use a comparable amount to the lye used for 100g of bark in other teks. I'm not terribly precise about this; I usually start off with 20g of lye crystals (adding it SMALL portions at a time) and then add some more if it's not black and crusty yet, thoroughly stirring throughout. I haven't tried the tek with lime, actually, although I will once I run out of lye. The reason I use lye is simply because it is what I had a large jar of when I started extracting.

 

[Psilocin Dreams]

Welp i am running a side by side analysis with Lye and Lime so far only diffrences so far are with Lime the goos crust turns brown and with the Lye obviously its black.

My main reason for not liking the basting is its just tedious. If i had a pipette thatd be a diffrent story. Even a nice seperatory funnel would be nice. But alas ill work with what i must till i can afford such luxuries as nice glassware. Least ill aprieciate them more when i do have the funds.

 

[Apoc]

Yes, you can substitute lime for lye in Q21's tek. However, you'll just have to add more water to the mimosa solution. Apparently, the lime is a strong base, but only if it's slightly hydrated, so you'll end up with mimosa mud. You'll need more water if you use lye, but yes, the idea is the same as far as base + water + non polar solvent.

EDIT: OH!!! I forgot to mention, Q21's tek is also an A/B tek as well, it's not STB. So, it's not exactly the same as lazyman's tek. For some reason which I don't quite understand, it is important in Q21's tek to add 50/50 boiling water/vinegar to the mimosa and let sit for an hour before adding the lime.

 

[Psilocin Dreams]

Ok i ran into a slight problem....... least i think it is. Ok so i did a side by side Q21Q21 one with lime and the other lye. After i did my pulls and freeze precipted, Both dishes had what seemed to be white crystals. The lime dish everything sank and stuck, the lye dish had what i thought were crystals floating around and on the bottom but once i evaped the lye dish had nothing to show. i did save the naptha after decanting. I have no idea what went wrong. Did everything the same only change was i mixed a soulution of lye befor basifying instead of adding the lye to the bark then adding water. Any ideas? Oh also i still have the bark but after completeing 3 naptha pulls i did 2 limo pulls to get the jungle. Sucess with limo on the lime bark still evaping the vinegar from the lye bark.

 

[Psilocin Dreams]

Ok so total yield on the Lime was .6 grams out of 50 grams MHRB on the Lye a big fat doughnut. Gonna try again maybe i overlooked something, i dunno.