Aya conservation: unfreezing / refreezing

[Zsuzsi]

Hello all,

after many experiences with extracted, crystallized DMT, I recently began to explore Ayahuasca-like brews (specifically: MHRB brew + Syrian Rue - guess the best description from reading here would be "mimosahuasca" ). Since brewing it takes a rather long time, and I also want the option of drinking more just in case, I've prepared a batch from 15g MHRB. I then froze it in the meantime, planning to use it in a few days.

My main question: I know that in the food sector, unfreezing stuff and then refreezing it is a risk; is that also relevant with MHRB brews ? once I unfreeze, can I freeze any remaining brew again safely ? let me add as relevant factors that 1. I boil in acidic water (one large spoon 8% white vinegar in 1L ph7 water), and 2. I plan to boil quickly again before consumption in any case. Is refreezing safe in that context ? Is there any serious risk of bacterial development ?

And whatever the response, does the same apply to Rue tea ? I also plan to freeze it to have a reserve on hand; and I also boil it with acid (same proportion) and also plan to reboil it beforehand.

And since I'm posting a topic I'll also add a few other questions:

* I'm doing 3x40m boils for both in ph ~4 water. That should be enough both for MHRB and Rue, right ? I know my brew is active from a previous ingestion, I'd just like to know if I'm wasting product with such short boils, and if so by how much.
* I'm letting the MHRB brew settle for 24 hours in a fridge beforehand, leaving aside the settled sediment at the bottom. I know that it contains actives, and as such I dry that sediment for further aya boils (I just add the dried out sediment of previous boils
with the plant matter for subsequent preparations). I've looked a bit on this very forum but I've seen no definite conclusion: has anyone actually measured how much actives that sediment contains ? if not, I'm considering performing extractions on the same to get an idea of it.
* Finally: during my first aya MHRB boil, I decided to opt for the white egg approach, hoping to remove tanins and limit purges; not only did this not work (and my god was my purge not only incredibly violent - extreme projectile vomiting - but also completely sudden and unexpected), but I low key suspects it may have strongly reduced the actives in the brew - though this may also come from insufficient MAO inhibition I guess. For the new brew I recently froze, I did not perform the egg white tannins removal. Similarly to my previous question: did anyone actually attempt to measure the difference in actives between brews where it has been applied compared when it hasn't (with the same bark of course) ?

Thanks in advance !

 

[downwardsfromzero]

It's the cooling phase after boiling that presents the greatest risk of bacterial contamination - the brew is at that optimal fermenting temperature range for a while. 1% acetic acid seems to prevent contamination quite effectively but becomes hard to stomach.

Rather than thawing out the whole lot each time, I would suggest you freeze it in ice-cube trays or in a similar manner with something corresponding more closely to your portion increment size. Then it will be easy just to use the amount you need each time. Ice cubes have the advantage of melting rapidly if you find you need more. If the volume of your brew exceeds your ice cube tray capacity, you can freeze in batches and transfer the ice cubes to a separate container before making the next batch.

Others have reported that egg white filtering removes actives too, I think even with comparative testing having been done. A search would be required for the relevant thread.

Some claim that filtering their caapi/chacruna brew through a cotton ball wadded into the neck of a funnel removes the particulates that contribute to nausea. Mimosa/rue may contain nauseating substances that are water soluble though. Hot filtering of mimosa brews is a mug's game - the tannins precipitate on cooling and clog any filter. Allow your mimosa brew to settle in the fridge for 24h and decant away from the tannin sludge.

Actives may stick in the sludge but an acidic brew should help minimise this.

 

[pinkoyd]

Tannin removal by egg fining is more effective with chacruna than caapi IME. Vine only brew tastes reasonably good, but it's the chacruna that adds the extreme bitterness and significant amounts of nausea. I feel I get the most 'bang for my buck' by fining only the chacruna. I don't have as much experience with mimosahuasca so can't offer much guidance there.

EDIT: In fact this reply has practically no bearing on your question. Please ignore the geezer in the room.

That said I don't think repeated freeze/thaw cycles would affect alkaloid content. Sugars and tannins and other large molecules might be degraded but alks are relatively small, fairly sturdy little guys. Excessive heat is more likely to degrade them (especially DMT) than freezing.

 

[Zsuzsi]

Thanks to the both of you for your answers.

I would suggest you freeze it in ice-cube trays or in a similar manner with something corresponding more closely to your portion increment size.

That is indeed a much better idea; wish I had gone this route.

Others have reported that egg white filtering removes actives too, I think even with comparative testing having been done. A search would be required for the relevant thread.

I've really looked and I didn't find such a comparative testing (about the closest I found if I remember correctly was someone confirming the presence of actives through a quick extraction, but no quantitative analysis).

Thanks again !

 

[Jagube]

I've never had a concentrated acidic brew go bad in the fridge; no need for freezing.
Don't know the concentration of acetic acid, but I reckon the pH of my brews ends up at around 5 - 5.5.

Since freezing is not required, depending on your needs you may want to make larger batches than 15g MHRB to save time.

 

[Zsuzsi]

That is reassuring, thanks. Pretty sure my ph is lower, too - I used a large tablespoon (~15ml) of 8% acetic acid in 1000ml of ph7 water, which from a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests a final ph of ~3.7 (and probably a bit lower, since water would evaporate more during reducing than acetic acid, concentrating it).

So I guess I'm pretty sure it'll be fine even after defrosting/refreezing a few times, especially considering I'll likely do that three times at most. Thanks again !

 

[bismillah]

As long as you keep it cold, it won't go bad; another point for the fridge.
The reason we don't refreeze food stuff is because it breaks open the cells in the food and gives it a nasty, mushy texture. You're not snacking on the bark, so you're good there.

I remember the time I left two jars of rue and mimosa tea in a dark cupboard at room temperature... I must be a feckin idiot, huh.
I did recover the alkaloids from those jars, though.

 

[Zsuzsi]

You know, I was convinced refrosting unfreezed foodstuff was a matter of bacterial development but after looking it up a bit it appears you're absolutely right - the main concern is decrease in taste/texture, especially if unfreezing occurs in, like you say, a fridge. So my concerns were indeed unfounded (doubly so when you consider the acidity of my brews).