Body as a means of communication

[wiru]

The idea is that our bodies act just as a means of communication for the mind, or consciousness.

It's not about physical communication as we know it. I'm talking about the body being a tool for the spirit (or mind, or consciousness, whatever you call it). Just as we use tools to aid us in doing everyday tasks, the mind uses body as a tool for communication, to join all it's pieces together.

So many people are obsessed with material values and body that they don't even try to ask what is the real purpose of their bodies. I'm not judging such thought and all the consequences resulting of such thinking. I'm trying to see under the physical appearance and beyond all the mundane actions to understand what life really is.

What is being communicated are ideas, thoughts and experiences. By sharing them we are joining all the pieces of consciousness together, expanding the understanding of our inseparable nature. Someone could object that not all ideas and experiences worth of sharing. However, if this is the case, it means they are not valuable enough and there is no point in pursuing them at all.

Would you share the concept of love? Would you do the same with hate? And why? Sure, people do have ideas and experiences of all kinds. Some of these are valuable, others not. How is this value determined and what does it mean to our understanding of life itself? The former idea implies that valuable ones are the ones which join the mind and contribute to it as a whole. The ones that separate it and serve the ego carry no value at all.

We go about our lives forgetting what it means to live at all. The concept of sharing may seem unpractical in the modern world, but it is exactly the opposite! Every thought and action can be experienced as joining our minds by sharing and putting it into practice or it can maintain the illusion of separateness by one's decision to keep it to oneself and trying to protect or hide it.

This is also what DMT's ego dissolving experiences mean to me. They show how illusive the body is and how unreal the seeming separation is. They also show how important it is to share, communicate them to everyone else thus putting all the puzzle pieces together and creating the full picture of understanding what life really means.

 

[burnt]

The sensation of your physical body being separate from other objects around you is essential for survival. I think DMT and meditation can temporarily shut down that sensation thus making you feel one with everything. I think the experience is an illusion.

 

[۩]

The sensation of your physical body being separate from other objects around you is essential for survival. I think DMT and meditation can temporarily shut down that sensation thus making you feel one with everything. I think the experience is an illusion.

and I think you need a heavy dose

 

[burnt]

House does swiy experience complete dissociation from body on heavier doses? SWIM has experienced this total dissociation before but found it difficult to remember the experience. Also this only happens with smoked doses not oral. Does SWIY experience it mostly with smoked or oral material?

 

[۩]

I am glad you didn't take my post as offensive! Like I've told you in the past, I like you and really appreciate your perspective.
I would just LOVE for you to experience what I have...I wish every scientist in the world could! (they can....hmmmmm...!)

What you refer to as dissociation IS quite hard to remember at first. Many deep sessions with changa will fortify your memories of this mode, making it easier for you to remember over time.
I have found that this does happen more often vaped, than orally. But that's just me. Many people on here "breakthrough" orally all the time.

 

[burnt]

What you refer to as dissociation IS quite hard to remember at first. Many deep sessions with changa will fortify your memories of this mode, making it easier for you to remember over time.
I have found that this does happen more often vaped, than orally. But that's just me. Many people on here "breakthrough" orally all the time.

Does SWIY's changa mixtures incorporate an MAOI? SWIM has been curious to see if MAOI will help with memory and vaped spice. For SWIM oral SWIM remembers rather well but it never has caused fully body dissociation.

The only substances that have been able to cause fully body dissociation with SWIM is vaped dmt, ketamine, and very high doses of psilocin and sometimes for a few moments acid. Often a total loss of self also known as ego death occurs but on the tryptamines not ketamine. Ketamine SWIM is aware or SWIM's self even if that self feels like it has no body.

I guess the reason I say this is I find it hard to imagine some experience more then what SWIM has already experienced that could totally change SWIMs perspective about psychedelic drugs and mystical states. This could also be a brain chemistry thing. Some people take lots of psychedelics and never have mystical experiences. SWIM thinks SWIM is kind of person who does have them often as SWIM has often had experiences that match what others report. The difference is how SWIM interprets it I guess.

 

[Citta]

The sensation of your physical body being separate from other objects around you is essential for survival. I think DMT and meditation can temporarily shut down that sensation thus making you feel one with everything. I think the experience is an illusion.

This sensation of separation may be evolutionary necessary, but evolutionary necessary is not to be confused with absolute truth. Evolution makes species different. All species have a setup of its own to best adapt to its environment. Those without the necessary setup fail to adapt, and so fails to survive. But one setup doesn't make the other untrue in any way. See where I am going?

There is in essence a very fundemental truth to an experience of connectedness and oneness. The simple truth is this: You are esentially just the same as everything else. Everything that is different is not really different per se, just variations in manifestation of the same fundemental underlying matter. You know this, and people with some insight in science knows this intellectually. Do they feel it? Probably not. The way I see it these experiences are just feeling this intuitively. Feeling it in every inch of your body. This is a powerful and moving experience, and can give much inspiration and be beneficial to both yourself and your environment (you may feel more loving towards everything and everyone).

Considering the state our planet is in because of our mess, maybe an experience like this is good for our species and can catalyze a lot of good work and lots of healing? Or maybe I am just being naive and hopeful? ;D

At least this is how I like to think about the mystical experience, without any magic involved.

 

[Dorge]

The idea is that our bodies act just as a means of communication for the mind, or consciousness.

I dont know... I have seen many intelligent beings and dead folk communicate with out bodies... with each other...but if they want to communicate to us they don't need a body either... so I am really not sure about that one...

 

[burnt]

This sensation of separation may be evolutionary necessary, but evolutionary necessary is not to be confused with absolute truth. Evolution makes species different. All species have a setup of its own to best adapt to its environment. Those without the necessary setup fail to adapt, and so fails to survive. But one setup doesn't make the other untrue in any way. See where I am going?

I think so SWIM doesn't see infrared light but some insects do. Yet its clearly a real thing.

There is in essence a very fundemental truth to an experience of connectedness and oneness. The simple truth is this: You are esentially just the same as everything else. Everything that is different is not really different per se, just variations in manifestation of the same fundemental underlying matter. You know this, and people with some insight in science knows this intellectually. Do they feel it? Probably not. The way I see it these experiences are just feeling this intuitively. Feeling it in every inch of your body. This is a powerful and moving experience, and can give much inspiration and be beneficial to both yourself and your environment (you may feel more loving towards everything and everyone).

This is exactly the experience SWIM is talking about. Loss of sense of self is what I call it. Even our sense of self is somewhat of an illusion. A necessary illusion but certainly something generated by our brain for obviously beneficial reasons towards survival. Its important to have a sense of 'I'.

There is a truth to interpreting this experience this way in that yes you really are the same as everything else; matter and energy. Many scientists know this fact well however no they do not perceive it intuitively. Also I do not think while in these states one is directly experience whats going on in some other galaxy or what is going on beyond their sensory range even if that sensory range is enhanced or distorted. At least I doubt that is possible.

However there is a fundamental difference between all individuals even if our DNA is identical like twins. We have different memories and experiences. I believe one day it will be shown through science that these memories and experiences are reflected in the connections between neurons which will be somewhat different in every human being even if they are identical twins. Regardless even if the neuron thing isn't the explanation this truly does make us unique because no human being can have had the same exact experiences as any other person. Another human beings experience cannot be shared (not yet anyway). Some people with mental illness may have multiple personalities living within them which hints more that the brain is responsible for this sense of 'I'.

On a powerful psychedelic journey ones sense of self can completely shatter. Your connection to your memories gone. You become a blank slate of pure experience and awareness of that moment in your existence. If you are totally and completely removed from that sense of your self then your are at a raw level. Becoming aware that this raw level exists at all is enough to completely transform someones world view. It actually makes SWIM feel really emotional just thinking about having that experience. It is so powerful.

All humans at this raw level are I think are having the same experience because what makes you unique is temporarily gone in the mental sense. Physically of course you are still different you have a slightly different body etc. Perhaps this awareness of your own raw humanity breeds empathy in individuals who experience this. This may be why psychedelics have such a community and empathy building change in behavior.

Human beings have what are called mirror neurons. These neurons are the reason why when you see someone else experience something really painful like for guys someone getting kicked in the nuts you kinda flinch. It makes sense why humans would have evolved a module in the brain to feel like "being in someone elses shoes". It might also make sense that psychedelics increase these kinds of connections or stimulate a deep love for everyone and everything around you by effecting the functioning of these kinds of neurons. I know nothing more about their function though so I can't speculate further.

 

[Citta]

Great post burnt, great post! I feel that you and I definitely are on the same level on this one. This interpretation is beautiful, its perfectly rational, and it moves my heart =)

 

[burnt]

Good I am glad it made sense.

However here is the part that is not so warm. I think where I begin to differ with some is what consciousness is. To me it doesn't seem like it needs to be anything more then electricity flowing through a set of neurons that are capable of changing and growing new connections. Neural plasticity is now well known.

Because of this I feel that death is the end of your 'I' forever. Unless the universe somehow recycles itself infinite number of times and a very similar 'I' redevelops in some of universes. But thats a long shot.

In a loss of sense of self / ego death experience you literally feel reborn because its like you temporarily died mentally without dieing physically. When you die physically and those connections start falling apart and can't restart you can never be put back together again.

 

[wiru]

The idea is that our bodies act just as a means of communication for the mind, or consciousness.

I dont know... I have seen many intelligent beings and dead folk communicate with out bodies... with each other...but if they want to communicate to us they don't need a body either... so I am really not sure about that one...

Well, I'm not saying that only our bodies can be a means of such communication. I have no idea about dead folk and what may be their experience of selves, nor do I know about any other varieties of the said communication. However, for me it is obvious that at least a body acts as a tool for such sharing of information and experience.

This communication enables us to have these 'raw' level experiences that burnt is talking about. Without such communication all humans would be totally isolated egoistic beings, which is not the case. What we see in a psychedelics using part of society and some other groups of people is an increased awareness of the communication with the mind. This also contributes to a rise in sharing of experiences and ideas between the group itself and with others.

This in turn strengthens them and joins them together. So if communication of experiences on the mind level serves such a crucial role, I bet it has a lot to do with the purpose of our bodies in this respect. I actually see it as the main purpose of a body - to communicate with seemingly other parts of consciousness and the universal mind itself.

Exactly this communication joins all the parts together into one infinite piece, of which we all share a part and which can not be divided.

 

[alladinsgrandpa]

My personal belief is that we are all stardust and that our mind is an Aspect of our body to keep us alive and evolving. similar to something I've heard Joe Rogan talk about. Love, emotion, fear, everything is to just help us pass on our genes and survive and develope. I'm watching life on discovery as I type this and it is so true. I believe our brains our just a part of our physical body and the human nature is to seek and be curious.

We are just so intelligent we get bored with the essentials of food, water, sex, shelter and everything goes fro
there. Sorry if I'm a little unclair I'm double tasking a bit. I would love to clear anything up. Who knows maybe well get somewhere. Infact ha I would love a repsonse I'm in the mood to discuss!

 

[Citta]

Good I am glad it made sense.

However here is the part that is not so warm. I think where I begin to differ with some is what consciousness is. To me it doesn't seem like it needs to be anything more then electricity flowing through a set of neurons that are capable of changing and growing new connections. Neural plasticity is now well known.

Because of this I feel that death is the end of your 'I' forever. Unless the universe somehow recycles itself infinite number of times and a very similar 'I' redevelops in some of universes. But thats a long shot.

In a loss of sense of self / ego death experience you literally feel reborn because its like you temporarily died mentally without dieing physically. When you die physically and those connections start falling apart and can't restart you can never be put back together again.

I agree. And accepting this fact is, imho, one of the most humble things to do. I have witnessed death more than I would like to, and I currently face it again with my moms, so one would think I would seek comfort and reassurance in believing that the consciousness of these people move on afterwards. But I just can't see how that is so, and I don't find that just as magnificent and beautiful as the alternate explanation neither: Your sense of "I", your personality, subjective YOU is nothing more than your brain doing fancy stuff. If your brain does not work, you don't work: Hence, death is where the finish line is drawn for the subjective, individual human experience and "Iness". Thinking and believing otherwise is just meat for the ego that can't accept, nor imagine, this to be true.

It's instinct. Death is something that generally scares the human. If it were not, then we might have run into it more often than evolutionary beneficial. This is true not only for humans, but for animals all over the place. Dying might be failing to breed. Evolution is bringing shit forward. There is a reason we avoid danger, and that when we're threatened with our lives we do crazy shit. It's just that we humans have the intellectual capacity to really ponder upon our own nature, and the nature of all other things. And when we run into properties that we might not like we tend to get some fancy explanations.

If this is not the case than what is? Where the fuck do we all go? What creates this reality we go to? Where is it, and why can't I seem to recall being there before I was born? Or maybe I am a new soul? And what kind of senses do we use in this reality? How can we be individuals without sense organs? We're just animals, so what about other animals? Nah folks, I am on this one single journey. The universe is playing it's hilarious game through me at this time and it is a privilege to be on this trip (even tho I never chose to be), and once it is over it is over. Though what I really am, energy and matter, cease not to exist when individuality cease to exist, so I still exist. Just not in this spesific form. It's just transformation, an inherent property of our universe. It's happening all the time, and with this form that is me it is no different.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

I have totally gotten the feeling that my body is, at this point, the ultimate instrument of my consciousness in exploring itself... in this phase/aspect of itself, e.g., we incarnated in a 3d world bound by certain laws with other 3d beings, so it also occurred to me that I should take as best care of my body as possible, to have as many experiences as possible, and also explore what kinds of experiences CAN be possible (like supplementing my brain with DMT...).

That my body is also an extension of my brain feels like things I have felt. Also, that my brain is an extension of yet SOMETHING ELSE, which has temporarily freaked me out once or twice in the past, because I didn't know where to source that idea from, but, again, I've felt these things before.

Though, there is the complimentary aspect of consciousness, where it would make perfect sense to destroy oneself in order to not experience oneself, as the ultimate play of all and infinite possibilities.

...

*foot in mouth*

^^Now the truly interesting question is, what parts of my brain are stimulated when I put my foot in my mouth, from how many different positions can this feat be performed, and what states of consciousness result from said posture if my body really is just a tool of consciousness?

I'm personally a fan of--I think it's called butterfly? I could even put both of my big toes into my nose at this point, but I haven't gone there. Neither has DMT encouraged me to go there. Yet. I have no idea what that would communicate.

 

[Bill Cipher]

Because of this I feel that death is the end of your 'I' forever. Unless the universe somehow recycles itself infinite number of times and a very similar 'I' redevelops in some of universes. But thats a long shot.

In a loss of sense of self / ego death experience you literally feel reborn because its like you temporarily died mentally without dieing physically. When you die physically and those connections start falling apart and can't restart you can never be put back together again.

But is it such a stretch for you to think that the end of the "I" may perhaps give way to some new eternal beginning? A "rejoining" perhaps into "the collective" - some larger, deeper existence? This is my personal hope, anyway - and through what I've seen and experienced first hand, it's not so hard for me to buy it. I'm a fairly hardheaded skeptic by nature. I don't go all new agey too easily. But my experiences have challenged a lot of beliefs that I used to take for granted.

I could even put both of my big toes into my nose at this point, but I haven't gone there. Neither has DMT encouraged me to go there. Yet.

If and when you do, could you possibly provide a YouTube link? I'm pretty sure I would like to see this.

 

[burnt]

Nice post as well Citta. I see what you mean.

But is it such a stretch for you to think that the end of the "I" may perhaps give way to some new eternal beginning? A "rejoining" perhaps into "the collective" - some larger, deeper existence? This is my personal hope, anyway - and through what I've seen and experienced first hand, it's not so hard for me to buy it. I'm a fairly hardheaded skeptic by nature. I don't go all new agey too easily. But my experiences have challenged a lot of beliefs that I used to take for granted.

I'd say its possible. I can't and neither can anyone else for sure say what happens when we die. Also consciousness has not yet been fully explained so there is still mystery there. I remain open minded but that doesn't mean I'll believe what anyone tells me.

SWIMs most powerful psychedelic experiences have been encounter the souls/consciousness of dead relatives. However SWIM doesn't think that was real SWIM thinks SWIM was just trying to cope with death and high doses of psilocin made that possible by making me think I was communicating with my relatives. Other times psilocin has shown me what its like to be mentally dead and it was like being in an endless void so go figure who knows whats going on entirely in these states.

However my problem is when people take the fact that we don't know the full answers to either of those questions and then they just form a belief system about what happens take it as true and go tell everyone about it. That's called religion.

I was even reading through writings of some of the classic psychedelic authors/researchers (Grof Mentzer etc) and they all do this. They say "western science doesn't know what happens when you die" "ive done lots of acid and meditation" "ive studied buddhist literature (who cares?)" "therefore i know consciousness survives the brains physical death". That line of reasoning is total garbage and its why I think the psychedelic science often fails to be taken seriously. The first generation of researchers for the most part jumped off the deep end into spiritual and religious belief instead of remaining objective scientists. They lose all credibility in my opinion when they do this. Not because they have spiritual beliefs but because they claim to know something they can't possibly know from just taking acid / meditating. I've been there too so I know they are jumping too conclusions. I still see alternative explanations for their and SWIMs experiences.

My personal belief is that we are all stardust and that our mind is an Aspect of our body to keep us alive and evolving. similar to something I've heard Joe Rogan talk about. Love, emotion, fear, everything is to just help us pass on our genes and survive and develope. I'm watching life on discovery as I type this and it is so true. I believe our brains our just a part of our physical body and the human nature is to seek and be curious.

All evidence points to this being true.

 

[Bill Cipher]

Oh, I make no claims to know anything about where we go when we die, what the nature of hyperspace really is, or whether or not it's real. But the experience has brought me to a place of faith, for lack of a better word. It certainly isn't religious in nature... or maybe it is, I don't know. All I know is that in the moment I KNOW these things to be true - unflinchingly and undeniably so - so I do understand this line of reasoning that you hold in such contempt. I experience first hand a seemingly timeless and boundless communal intelligence. I am connected to every fucking thing, and I'm not even remotely "I". Now this doesn't mean for a moment it's real, and I vacillate on what I believe. But when you say you don't think we're experiencing something beyond our sensory range... I just don't know, Burnt. I just don't know. I certainly never would have imagined that my particular sensory range was capable of such profundity, and it certainly feels like whatever it is can't possibly come from my brain.

Who knows? The important thing is that it has connected me to the mystery. I'm full of wonder and teachable again, in a way that I previously wasn't.

 

[Czepa]

@wiru Ive been thinking along the same lines recently and its been a huge step for understanding myself, Embracing life and not beings stuck in a state of depression. DMT has really helped me, ill address parts of this thread that caught my interest when i have the time, but for now id just like to say that i love your thinking.

This thread shows that we are all capable of respecting and brainstorming FOR each other. the world needs to be more like the nexus.
Much Peace, Love and understanding

 

[wiru]

*foot in mouth*

^^Now the truly interesting question is, what parts of my brain are stimulated when I put my foot in my mouth, from how many different positions can this feat be performed, and what states of consciousness result from said posture if my body really is just a tool of consciousness?

That's an interesting point indeed. All tools are made for some specific purpose. For example, a screwdriver's use is to tighten screws, right? However, nothing limits it to it's original use. You can stick it in an electric socket, but it's purpose is not going to change because of this action. So you can put your feet in your mouth if you will, but the main purpose of your body is unlikely to change because of that.

However my problem is when people take the fact that we don't know the full answers to either of those questions and then they just form a belief system about what happens take it as true and go tell everyone about it. That's called religion.

Why is there any problem with this? I don't think we're even capable of getting full answers for everything. Not in a lifetime at least. This is of course the basis for all kinds of beliefs. Telling others about it is an exchange of ideas and beliefs, which I see as a very positive trend. Problems arise when this harmless exchange morphs into zealous efforts to manipulate everyone into believing something against their will.

This is why I see quite a few issues with organized religious groups as opposed to communities or persons having and sharing some rational or even irrational beliefs. Communication implies voluntary exchange of information, not a forceful approach.