Breaking through on aya

[brokenChild]

You mean this statement? "Just about every (if not every) psychoactive substance simply gives you the expression of your own consciousness,"

I don't to see how that sentence "covers all of the angles"...not even close...It seems more like it neglects to account for many other angles. As i said, it is this sort of thing that might give people the impression that all these psychedelics are doing is showing you an expression of your consciousness, which implies that any difficulties that arise would be from within you and having to do with personal issues/struggles/subconscious/unconscious content.

If you don't get it at this point then there really is no reason to continue trying to have a conversation.

Absolutely, what more do they do that's outside of the expression of your own consciousness?

The only external problems that can arise are due to set/setting and proper dosage. But as far as the actual "trip" or "journey" is concerned, it's all an expression of your consciousness. It certainly is not an expression of SOMEONE ELSE'S consciousness, unless you've allowed someone else's ideas into your head, in which case that will then become an expression of your consciousness as well.

Please explain to me, in specific examples, what specific "any difficulties that arise" would be outside of set/setting/dosage and your own conscious mind? I'm really trying to understand your point, I truly am. If you could explain it clearly to me so my thick skull can grasp it, then I would truly appreciate it

 

[Vodsel]

You mean this statement? "Just about every (if not every) psychoactive substance simply gives you the expression of your own consciousness,"

I don't to see how that sentence "covers all of the angles"...not even close...It seems more like it neglects to account for many other angles. As i said, it is this sort of thing that might give people the impression that all these psychedelics are doing is showing you an expression of your consciousness, which implies that any difficulties that arise would be from within you and having to do with personal issues/struggles/subconscious/unconscious content.

If you don't get it at this point then there really is no reason to continue trying to have a conversation.

Absolutely, what more do they do that's outside of the expression of your own consciousness?

The only external problems that can arise are due to set/setting and proper dosage. But as far as the actual "trip" or "journey" is concerned, it's all an expression of your consciousness. It certainly is not an expression of SOMEONE ELSE'S consciousness, unless you've allowed someone else's ideas into your head, in which case that will then become an expression of your consciousness as well.

I have the feeling you're not allowing universecannon's or Global's ideas into your head, and posting fancy pictures and motivational videos is not helping at all to convince anyone you're covering "ALL of the angles".

Personally I don't understand how do you manage to have some things so clearly figured out. We don't know if "psychoactive substances simply give you the expression of your own consciousness". Do you have any groundbreaking insight about the nature of consciousness that makes you say so? There's thousands of reports written by people using psychedelics that describe experiences completely alien to them. There's also thousands of reports that question the very border between "my consciousness" and a transcendent, unitary consciousness. There's reports of shared experiences. There's also good evidence to start considering very seriously that some psychedelics might trigger certain physical non-local effects. In any paradigm, we should reform our basic concepts, in this case consciousness, according to our experience - not the other way around.

Calling psychedelics a simple expression of your own consciousness sounds like a rushed, partial statement no matter how we look at it. And I honestly think it would be good to allow this idea in.

 

[upload]

You mean this statement? "Just about every (if not every) psychoactive substance simply gives you the expression of your own consciousness,"

I don't to see how that sentence "covers all of the angles"...not even close...It seems more like it neglects to account for many other angles. As i said, it is this sort of thing that might give people the impression that all these psychedelics are doing is showing you an expression of your consciousness, which implies that any difficulties that arise would be from within you and having to do with personal issues/struggles/subconscious/unconscious content.

If you don't get it at this point then there really is no reason to continue trying to have a conversation.

Absolutely, what more do they do that's outside of the expression of your own consciousness?

The only external problems that can arise are due to set/setting and proper dosage. But as far as the actual "trip" or "journey" is concerned, it's all an expression of your consciousness. It certainly is not an expression of SOMEONE ELSE'S consciousness, unless you've allowed someone else's ideas into your head, in which case that will then become an expression of your consciousness as well.

Please explain to me, in specific examples, what specific "any difficulties that arise" would be outside of set/setting/dosage and your own conscious mind? I'm really trying to understand your point, I truly am. If you could explain it clearly to me so my thick skull can grasp it, then I would truly appreciate it

imo, "it" is an expression of OUR consciousness...yours, mine..."I"

 

[brokenChild]

I have the feeling you're not allowing universecannon's or Global's ideas into your head, and posting fancy pictures and motivational videos is not helping at all to convince anyone you're covering "ALL of the angles".

Personally I don't understand how do you manage to have some things so clearly figured out. We don't know if "psychoactive substances simply give you the expression of your own consciousness". Do you have any groundbreaking insight about the nature of consciousness that makes you say so? There's thousands of reports written by people using psychedelics that describe experiences completely alien to them. There's also thousands of reports that question the very border between "my consciousness" and a transcendent, unitary consciousness. There's reports of shared experiences. There's also good evidence to start considering very seriously that some psychedelics might trigger certain physical non-local effects. In any paradigm, we should reform our basic concepts, in this case consciousness, according to our experience - not the other way around.

Calling psychedelics a simple expression of your own consciousness sounds like a rushed, partial statement no matter how we look at it. And I honestly think it would be good to allow this idea in.

Global's ideas I clearly understand, universecannon's I do not. And if I'm making it seem like I'm excluding their viewpoints, I'm not, so I apologize if it seems that way. I've clearly stated that I agree with Global's statement.

The other thing, you say "There's thousands of reports that question the very border between "my consciousness" and a transcandental consciousness" sure, this is true, but the fact still remains that this experience happens to your consciousness, or, in other words, to the consciousness of the psychonaut. Every experience that happens, happens to consciousness, whether it's an experience shared with another consciousness, or your own personal conscious expression, or some transcendental consciousness, the fact remains that it's YOUR experience of that other consciousness, or a more universal conscious expression... call it satori, all of these experiences all happen to consciousness. Unless I'm somehow missing YOUR point

 

[brokenChild]

Also I'm not being confrontational; challenging, perhaps, for the sake of a fruitful discussion, but I'm not confronting anybody. i'm simply presenting my viewpoint. I'm open to other viewpoints for the purpose of discussion, and anyone is free to share their viewpoints as well. The ultimate goal is proper understanding. Nor am I preaching, everyone is free to believe what they choose to believe. I'm simply sharing a viewpoint.

If anyone has a different viewpoint, or counterpoint, please feel free to share it for the sake of communal learning. Thanks

 

[upload]

I believe it's more than an extension of individual consciousness. The way it's manifested and experienced by each individual may be unique, yes, but there seems to be common truths experienced by all. It's a place we all have been before...it's a place we will all go again. This is only my opinion and I formed it after comparing many descriptions of that beautiful place to my brief experiences ..there is a deep, connective truth. If it were only extensions of each individual consciousness, this common truth could not exist, imo. Every experience would be completely different with few, if any, common feelings/experiences

 

[Doodazzle]

In E-prime, we say things like "seems to me".

We try and avoid "is" and other forms of "be".

"be" tends to create illusions of certainty, fungibility and permanance...


Absolute truth? I can't say whether or not I've ever found any of that stuff. DMT seems to go way beyond the point where one can be certain of much. Certain divides have presented themselves, in conversations at the nexus. People have tried to repeat themselves, over and over, in the endeavor (one supposes) to attain the sublime state having "proved them other guys wrong and me right!" I suspect that by this point, science should be saticefied that repetition alone will never prove you "right".

Um, maybe i should say that again?

broken, go check out some Rob Wilson. It's fun stuff, I promise.

 

[Arkestrate]

If I were to drink a third cup, would I be able to pass through this state of despair?

IMO yes, as soon as you feel you can take the third cup, take the third cup. Don't force it, doesn't have to be next ceremony necessarily, but as soon as you can trust the brew enough to do so, I believe the third cup will help. To prevent throwing up (or at least decrease your chances of it, or delaying it) I found it useful to "show" my stomach how to spin the brew down, in a spiral. Especially if someone throws up next to you, the sound they make might trigger your stomach to do the same. Should that happen, just follow the music and the downward spiral that the Aya is supposed to follow down your digestive tract. I found this quite effective.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of ceremony were you in? What was the music / setting like?

One alternative I've seen used in the Santo Daime ceremonies is smoking cannabis. Their understanding is that the cannabis opens up certain things, helps you to relax certain parts that then allow the Aya to work more deeply / thoroughly on your system, or kick in faster. You might want to try if this is permissible in your ceremony.