Characterizing, developing and maintaining harmala reverse tolerance?

[nigredo]

I've seen rare claims online that this or that substance has reverse tolerance. In every case, my own experience did not bear out such claims and there were scant anecdotes to confirm. But when it comes to harmalas, I'm a believer. It's happening to me right now.

I've been taking medium doses of harmalas sub-chronically as of late. I've been taking ~100 mg daily of harmine for a period of about 3 weeks or so followed by 1-4 weeks without (usually caused by slow progress on extractions). After several such cycles, nothing particularly interesting happened when resuming harmine. Then, suddenly, when I resumed taking harmine this time, I got floored by 100 mg of harmine. I struggled to stay upright and had to lie down. Got stuck in some bizarre half-dreaming state where I was seeing these mildly dysphoric color-less visions and eventually I even caught a 1 hour nap when I normally do not nap at all. This is more psychoactivity from harmalas than I've every experienced. After multiple trials and microscope+UV to confirm no harmaline contamination, the best explanation seems to be that this reverse tolerance really is happening.

But now I have more questions than before. The first thing I would wonder about is if reverse tolerance is merely an increase in potency or if it is also a "re-weighing" of the effects. I would bring the example of amphetamine sensitization which is induced in rodents by subchronic low doses. The resultant sensitization leads to such behavior in rats that amphetamine-sensitized rats are proposed as an animal model for psychosis. While acute stimulant doses could improve rat performance on some test, once sensitized, various negative effects will predominate. It is also very long lasting relative to how quickly it can be induced.

I would also be interested in how others have made reverse tolerance happen? I still don't know how I did it, this is about the 5th cycle I've done and there was no gradual increase in potency in the previous ones.

Another point of inquiry is whether there is a limit to this reverse tolerance or can it go all the way to, say, 10 mg. Also, whether this reverse tolerance can be lost and under what conditions. In particular, I'm wondering if continuing to take a fixed amount daily will result in tolerance (in the past, I did note harmine to have some degree of plain old straightforward tolerance).

 

[Jees]

Hello, wow that seems like quite a surprise coming from harmine/harmalas.
Could this have been a one off experience? Is it confirmed later?

Maybe you know this already but freebase harmine has no taste, freebase harmaline a terrible taste. But anyway being floored by 100mg is a strong effect even if it was a mix.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Yeah Harmalas definitely have a reverse tolerance, i've consumed Harmalas/Rue very regularly since 2012. I usually take a moderate to high dosage (like 3 to 4 grams of Rue seed powder capsules, or 180 to 200mgs of Rue or Harmala extract) daily/near daily and as the reverse tolerance increases the Harmala content gets stronger and stronger, once it's too strong i back the dosage down a tad bit and keep taking that dosage until it gets too strong, then i back the dosage down a bit more and continue to take that dosage until it gets too strong, and continue on until eventually i only need a small amount for a full on Harmala dosage. As the reverse tolerance builds up over a few weeks, the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea goes away, the bodyload and headspace cleans/clears up, and the motor function impairment is reduced, and even heavy Harmala dosages are alot more tolerable.

Ime some effects of the Rue/Harmalas do go away when the reverse tolerance is built up, although i've often times had Lemon Balm in the mix which in itself can clean up some of the Harmala's effects, but i do think some of the effects of Harmalas are reduced as the reverse tolerance builds up, aside from it's side-effects, but it still works just fine with the reverse tolerance built up.

Also as for if there is a limit on the reverse tolerance or how long it takes for the reverse tolerance to go away, ime once you get down to a certain dosage if you go below that it's not enough to keep the reverse tolerance going, like when i've taken Rue and gotten down to about 2 grams of Rue, if i went below 2 grams it didn't seem strong enough to keep the reverse tolerance going, but i'm not sure. As for how long it would take to go away, it depends, it could take a week, or a few weeks ime.

Also i have definitely confirmed a reverse tolerance exists for Harmalas, it's pretty obvious. Though as Jeez mentioned, freebased Harmalas don't have much of a taste at all if put directly into the mouth, though ime even Harmaline/Rue extract didn't taste bad at all in freebased form.

 

[Jees]

^^^ maybe the way the freebase was obtained, the processes used, chemicals, concentrations, can add to a different taste? You won't like my harmaline, I'm quite confident

Could there be enough harmine contamination in the harmaline to ease the harmaline's taste?

Just wondering.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Not sure, i basically use vinegar and washing soda, i boil up 100 grams of Rue seed, strain/filter out the seeds, doing about 4 to 6 separate boils, then when it's all combined and reduced to around 400mls i add a splash of vinegar, dissolve 15 to 20 grams of washing soda into 100mls of hot water and pour that into the brew while stirring which precipitates out the extract. Then i filter out the extract, and clean it up a few times by re-dissolving it in fresh warm water with a splash of vinegar (about 75mls to be exact), filter, and then re-base, then after the final cleansing/purification step i filter out the extract, compact it so it's not as fluffy, and let it dry, once dry it's good to go. I've even put the freebased extract in a cup of water (even though it just floats on top of the water because it's not water soluble in freebased form) and drank it and it may have had a slight bitter taste but pretty much tasteless ime, i even put the powder in my mouth and used my tongue to spread it around and make sure i could taste it and it was very tolerable, hardly any taste at all.

Idk if the Harmine would affect the taste of Harmaline, but i usually go for freebased Rue full spectrum extract or purified Harmala (Harmine/Harmaline) extract, both seem to taste fine ime, but i mainly use capsules either way.

 

[Jagube]

then when it's all combined and reduced to around 400mls

I've recently discovered it's not necessary to reduce Rue tea at all if you're going to freebase it anyway.
Just pour the unreduced tea into a large container or a number of containers, base it with NaOH and decant the liquid off once the alkaloids have settled. A little NaOH goes a long way in basing.
This way the large volumes of water are easily separated from the goodies and discarded, without burning tons of energy and steaming up the house.

On the subject of taste, I appreciate that freebase harmalas are much more palatable, but I like to work with liquids, ideally acidic ones for compatibility with DMT containing teas. The acetates are absolutely abhorrent, worse even than Rue tea, and I'm wondering if there is a more palatable salt form or a way to mask the taste?

 

[Sabnock1990]

Noted, that may make the filtering process a bit easier. I use washing soda instead of lye, works fine, though i guess lye has it's advantages too. Yeah i don't like to use vinegar or acids except for Rue/Harmala extractions, i've tried to make some Acacia teas a few times with citric acid and the smell and taste was much more pronounced so if i go for a Mimosa or Acacia tea i prefer it to be of neutral pH as DMT seems to be pretty water soluble, though i can maybe see benefit in converting it into a different salt form. Capsules for me are the way to go, i see no reason to make a brew when capsules work fine, no taste, reliable/consistent effects, at least with extracts only need one capsule, and Mimosa or Acacia residue capsules only require a few, like 2 to 4 capsules, and Rue seed powder for me is like 4 to 6 capsules, but i would like to venture into the teas at some point, if i could just find a way to make them more palatable, which in Rue's case i may be able to improve the taste by roasting the seeds but i'm not sure, with Mimosa or Acacia root teas though the last time i added some milk and sugar to it and drank it while warm like Coffee, it was a good bit more palatable ime.

 

[nigredo]

@ShamensStamen

So do you hold 3-4 grams of rue capsules to be equivalent to 180-200 mg of extract? One should expect at least 3% of harmalas by weight from syrian rue so I guess that's about what one should expect.

I'll note that results from people's Manskes would suggest that up to 50% of base-precipitated alkaloids from syrian rue consists of substances other than harmine or harmaline. If so, we seem to be getting these effects from comparable doses. Your 180-200 mgs should contain 90-100 mg of harmalas, which is roughly what I've been taking. Effectively it may be closer to 150 mg, as in my (albeit limited since I eschew harmaline) experience and according to anecdotes I've seen, harmaline is subjectively felt to be twice as potent as harmine. Eventually, you would cut it in half, which would bring you to the ~50 mg range where I've now found myself. Presumably this is the lower limit of the reverse tolerance. I suppose I will find out soon enough if 50 mg daily will be sufficient to maintain it. On that subject, am I to understand that there is no steady state here? You start off at higher doses, then you progressively lower the dose until it is too low to maintain the tolerance and then, when it goes away, you go back up to high doses and let it drop down again?

Also, what primary effects did you notice were altered in reverse tolerance condition and was that for all dosage ranges or only for the lower doses that became possible with the progress of reverse tolerance?

So far I can note that this change has effectively locked me out of certain effects. For example, marked tempo acceleration of music. Normally, 100 mg of harmaline would speed up songs enough to ruin many of the slower ones. It still does that now, but at the cost of having to endure a bizarre trip. At doses low enough that this can be averted, the tempo acceleration is either absent or too subtle to notice. I suppose that's an effect I shouldn't miss, though it served as useful indicator. But the next one I do miss: 100 mg created this sense of 'deafening silence' in the mind for me, which I've rather appreciated. It still seems to do so, but if I opt for a more manageable 50 mg dose, the effect is mostly absent.

Hello, wow that seems like quite a surprise coming from harmine/harmalas.
Could this have been a one off experience? Is it confirmed later?

Maybe you know this already but freebase harmine has no taste, freebase harmaline a terrible taste. But anyway being floored by 100mg is a strong effect even if it was a mix.

Yes, this was quite a surprise. But I've tried it 5 times already. 100 mg has now become simply too much unless I want to take an afternoon nap. 80 mg didn't seem too different. 50 mg seemed to work without a heavy wave of sleepiness, but 55 mg the day after did have a 30-60 minute period of wanting to put my head down and just listen to music (uncharacteristic for me).

My extract was basically tasteless so I had reason to believe it mostly harmine, but I also took the extra step to re-precipitate a bit of it under microscope only to get harmine needles. I also viewed it under UV and it glowed blue with minimal, if any, traces of green to the naked eye. So if there is any harmaline in there, it's only in trace amounts.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Well i usually get about 3.5 to 4 grams of clean/pure full spectrum extract from 100 grams of Rue seed, so idk the exact comparisons but 3 to 4 grams of Rue seed does seem a good bit stronger compared to the full spectrum extract, likely because the extract misses some things in Rue that makes it stronger, whereas the extract feels lighter, particularly the purified Harmala (Harmaline/Harmine) extract which just feels like isolated compounds whereas the full spectrum extract feels closer to the Rue seed but lighter. And ime 180 to 200mgs of full spectrum extract i would say is maybe more like 3 to 3.5 grams of Rue, possibly, i'm not sure, but 200mgs does seem like a good dosage.

"You start off at higher doses, then you progressively lower the dose until it is too low to maintain the tolerance and then, when it goes away, you go back up to high doses and let it drop down again?"

Pretty much, as the reverse tolerance builds it gets stronger and stronger so i don't particularly feel the need to go over a certain dosage, i just let it come to me by taking the same dosage regularly, which seems to work out pretty well. So when things get too strong, i lower the dosage a little bit and take that dosage until it gets too strong, lower the dosage a bit more and continue on. Once it gets too low to maintain the reverse tolerance i simply take a bit more to keep the reverse tolerance going and stick with that dosage unless things get too strong which in that case yeah i would stop taking the Harmalas/Rue, wait for the reverse tolerance to dissipate a bit, and then continue back taking it. But i usually take the stuff daily when i do take it, so it may be useful to skip a day or two in between doses, i'm not sure.

"Also, what primary effects did you notice were altered in reverse tolerance condition and was that for all dosage ranges or only for the lower doses that became possible with the progress of reverse tolerance?

So far I can note that this change has effectively locked me out of certain effects. For example, marked tempo acceleration of music. Normally, 100 mg of harmaline would speed up songs enough to ruin many of the slower ones. It still does that now, but at the cost of having to endure a bizarre trip. At doses low enough that this can be averted, the tempo acceleration is either absent or too subtle to notice. I suppose that's an effect I shouldn't miss, though it served as useful indicator. But the next one I do miss: 100 mg created this sense of 'deafening silence' in the mind for me, which I've rather appreciated. It still seems to do so, but if I opt for a more manageable 50 mg dose, the effect is mostly absent."

Yeah i know what you're talking about with the music tempo, i can't remember if it goes away or not but iirc as long as i've taken a good dosage, music is definitely altered/enhanced and the music does sound faster than usual. As for what effects i've noticed were absent, the nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and dizziness/motion sickness goes away, the bodyload cleans up, the motor function impairment is reduced, and things feel a bit more medicinal rather than shamanic, so things feel cleaner/lighter, more functional, and less intoxicating. Though i do often times have Lemon Balm in the mix so that could perhaps explain some of the cleaner bodyload and headspace and it's been awhile since i haven't had Lemon Balm in the mix with Harmalas/Rue, but it does seem that the lower the dosage of Rue is with the Harmala reverse tolerance built up, it feels way cleaner compared to taking the equivalent amount of Harmala content with a heavier dosage of Rue without the reverse tolerance (even without the Lemon Balm, ime).