coca leaves with syrian rue as ADHD methylfenidate alternative?

[cheiron]

Hi all,

This is a bit of topic, but I think I have the highest chance of encountering some intelligent advice on this forum.

The background: I have been using ayahuasca for 6 years now, in the Santo Daime context and brewing my own with chaliponga/syrian rue.

Recently, I have been diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed methylfenidate (ritaline). I tried it a few times, and it does the trick, but the rebound is quite horrible, giving me a severe crash, headaches and disturbed dreams.

As you can understand, I was hoping to find a natural alternative with a more benign thumbprint. My eye has fallen on cocaleaves. The cocaine, being a serotonin–norepinephrine–dopamine reuptake inhibitor, does almost the same as methylfenidate (being a dopamine-noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor).

I obtained some leaves and started experimenting with chewing them with some baking soda.

While it does have the stimulating effect, it has some downsides too: it is very short working (cocaine having a halftime of 1 hour) and I have trouble obtaining a steady effect. This made me wondering: what about combining a MAOI and the cocaleaves?

Like, dropping some 3 grams of syrian rue and chewing some leaves?

There is a lot of warning about combining stimulants with cocaine, but the levels of cocaine released from chewing are about a factor 50 lower than sniffing a line, so that might well be an uncomparable risk...?

Anyone experiences with this combination?
Or someone has other ideas to get me in the good direction for finding a natural alternative for methylfenidate?

 

[concombres]

BAD idea.
Cocaine is a stimulant & there are other active alkaloids in the same family as cocaine in the leaves.

Mixing ANY stimulants with harmalas is dangerous. Even in small amounts.
Your health is not something to toy with.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Recently, I have been diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed methylfenidate (ritaline). I tried it a few times, and it does the trick, but the rebound is quite horrible, giving me a severe crash, headaches and disturbed dreams.

Shouldn't happen, tell your doc and ask for a time released formulation or d-amphetamine.

Btw, cocaine is cardiotoxic, nothing you want to ingest on a regular basis. There are suggestions that DMAE can reduce ADHS symptoms (if you buy a bulk amount of 100g, it shouldn't cost more than 10€/$). Or try meditation as a long term solution (+5-10 yrs). Neurofeedback is also something you could look into.

 

[cheiron]

Mixing ANY stimulants with harmalas is dangerous. Even in small amounts.

Ok, that is clear advice , thanks. I suspected so, because I guessed I would have found more experiments along these lines online somewhere.

ask for a time released formulation or d-amphetamine

That might be better than the methylfenidate, but I was hoping to find a plantbased solution.

suggestions that DMAE can reduce ADHS symptoms

you mean, fishoil? I'm already taking fishoil, but maybe you mean something else... If I google DMAE I get a lot of different hits, the first ones pointing to fishoil...?

meditation as a long term solution ... Neurofeedback is also something you could look into.

Have been meditation on and off, it helps, but not enough.
Neurofeedback might be an interesting option too, have been thinking of building my own brainmachine.

But for now I want to research the path of adding something to my diet. The cocaleaves seemed promising, but after two days chewing some leaves, it turns out to be stimulation but not really adding the focus I need...

 

[Ufostrahlen]

you mean, fishoil? I'm already taking fishoil, but maybe you mean something else... If I google DMAE I get a lot of different hits, the first ones pointing to fishoil...?

I mean DMAE: Dimethylethanolamine - Wikipedia

Dietary Supplements
A large number of dietary supplements contain DMAE. The predominant form, when specified,
is DMAE bitartrate. Typical adult doses of DMAE in dietary supplements range from 100 to
500 mg/day, based on an ILS analysis of retrievals from this Google search: DMAE synonyms
and “mg”.

Sources from an Internet Google search about unspecified DMAE listed doses of 400 mg/day,
600 mg/day, and up to 600 mg three times per day. Two products contained DMAE cyclohexylcarboxylate fumarate, and one contained 100 mg DMAE p-acetamidobenzoate, equivalent to 33 mg DMAE.

Many of these products were formulations with other dietary
supplements such as Gingko biloba. SmartBodyz Nutrition (2002) offers a DMAE-Gingko
biloba supplement with 100 mg per tablet. Lee-Benner (undated) markets a product, Perfect
Mind I, which contains 100 mg DMAE bitartrate per tablet but also contains choline bitrate,
vitamin B-5, phosphatidyl choline, and RNA.

The Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database (2002) stated that the typical starting dose for
DMAE is 100 mg/day, with a gradual increase to 500 mg/day. Clinical studies have used 300 to
2,000 mg/day.

Pediatric doses of DMAE in several sources from the Internet range from about 16 to 40 mg/day
(Brain Child Nutritionals, undated-a; Good4all.net, 2002; VitaBoy, undated; and The Mineral
Connection, 2002). Formulations with DMAE intended for attention deficit disorder (ADD)
include Pay AttentionTM ADD brain formula by Smart Nutrition (undated). Gugliotta (2000) in a
Washington Post article listed other DMAE products targeted for children for treatment of ADD
and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).

DMAE bitartrate is the key ingredient of Focus Child by Source Naturals, which is now called Attentive Child (Suzannes.com, undated).
Introduced in 1999, Focus Child became one of the company’s top ten sellers within a year (a
feat in a company that offers more than 400 products). Another product named by Gugliotta
(2000) was Pedi-Active A.D.D. Other DMAE supplements offered for children included
chewable tablets and bars containing fruit and chocolate. En Garde Health Products (1997)
markets a buffered aqueous solution of DMAE.

Typical doses are 10 drops (25 mg) daily for children and up to 20 drops (50 mg) twice daily for adults. An approximate 2-month supply is equivalent to 2.3 oz. (70 mL; 200 drops). Brain Child Nutritionals (undated-a, undated-b) offers Spectrum Support I with 100 mg DMAE bitartrate (37.6 mg DMAE) per liquid ounce.

BIAM (1999) markets a dietary supplement with DMAE hemisuccinate for adults with a suggested
daily dose of 200 to 600 mg. The Web site mentions a supplement for children, no longer
marketed, which had a suggested daily dose of 50 to 100 mg per day.

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/chem_background/exsumpdf/dmae_update_110002_508.pdf

 

[MoonMan79]

Don´t throw away this idea.:thumb_up:
Also there is not much literature about this
subject - there are shamans and tribes in south america, that combine
ayahuasca and coca. By the way: Both plants have close mythological connection.

There is some literature, about it (on german):
Adelaars/Rätsch/Müller-Ebling, Ayahuasca, look at page 59
Rätsch/Ott, Coca und Kokain, look at page 279

Of course: be carefull, when combing "new" combos, but people say also, don´t connect
haramlas and mescalin .... and it is - in my expierence phantastic, if dosed right.

So who knows?

 

[DreaMTripper]

I would be researching the nootropics if I were you, I believe I have ADD and piracetam helps me stay focussed, as does ALPHA-GPC even on its own, but I dont have the 'H'(yperactivity).
Im sure there will be a plant based alternative if you keep looking.

 

[Tryptallmine]

Don´t throw away this idea.:thumb_up:

subject - there are shamans and tribes in south america, that combine
ayahuasca and coca. By the way: Both plants have close mythological connection.

That may be the case. But I highly doubt they are doing it daily, or every few hours to abate symptoms of an illness given the relative short half life of coca.

To be taking something at a high frequency that is cardiotoxic is not conducive to good health.

I tend to believe a lot of our problems can be assisted with dietary changes. You might not get full alleviation of your ADHD but a considerable lifestyle change incorporating good diet is surely going to help rather than dosing on a variety of untested drug interactions.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

If you look for plants specifically, the stimulant plants come to mind: khat, ephedra. But they all contain stimulants which have similar effects compared to ritalin. Ritalin has also the advantage to come from a pharmaceutical lab being 99,8% pure and already pre-dosed. If you crash on ritalin, you might as well crash on khat, ephedra or coca without knowing the exact dosage to overcome the rebound effect.

Googling for ADHS and cannabis ended up in interesting results, but I only found case studies in German.

More info on DMAE

 

[Vine and leaf]

Have been meditation on and off, it helps, but not enough.

The thing with meditation is, for it really to work, you need to make it a practice. I tried "on and off" for years, with interesting results, but nothing could prepare me for what happened to my mind when I started sitting every single night.

After a week or two, you hit a groove, and find yourself quite with it. Keep it up and it will keep up. "On and off" doesn't really cut it, IME. It's critical to keep it a regular practice; even if you only have time for a fifteen minute sit one night, DON't SKIP IT. I try for an hour or two per day; I find that if I "miss" a couple days, the effects rapidly wear off.

Also, especially with your condition, don't worry about silencing your mind. As Alan Watts was fond of saying, just leave your mind alone. It will silence itself.

What meditation techniques have you tried thus far? What have been your expectations from the cushion? Another huge leap for me was when I realized some years ago that the voice in my head never stops, and that's not the point of meditation. It's my mind thinking about what the voice is saying, which needs to stop. Let the voice say whatever it has to say, give that statement the space and room it needs, and then let it pass. Then the voice will say something else. Sit with that, and let it pass.

The idea is to have thoughts pass through you, unobstructed, without sticking or attaching to you. This then translates into everyday life as feelings passing through you without sticking or attaching.

And it really works.

 

[cheiron]

BAD idea. Mixing ANY stimulants with harmalas is dangerous. Even in small amounts.

there are shamans and tribes in south america, that combine ayahuasca and coca.

Ok... Proceed with caution, but the combination doesn't seem off limits when I stay very cautious

I believe I have ADD and piracetam helps me stay focussed

you mean this Piracetam - Wikipedia ? It is indicated for dementia & vertigo, it seems...

I mean DMAE

thanks for the lead, I will research it further!

If you crash on ritalin, you might as well crash on khat, ephedra or coca

Now, you might think so, but that is the interesting fact: I have been experimenting with coca leaves. There is absolutely no crash. It is a mild stimulant on low doses, but very short working. However, the biggest problem seems to be that even though it stimulates, I don't get the focus and attention I get with methylfenidate.

I belief plantbased solutions have an intelligence of there own, being 'tested' over millions of years in the biological system of the plant. Of course there are dangerous plants, but a lot of plants have a balance, containing several alkaloids that interact, on a level no pharma can obtain...

Ephedra is next on the list of plant stimulants.

Googling for ADHS and cannabis ended up in interesting results

I have used a lot of cannabis, without effects in the categorie 'focus'
But it might be a different case to use a medicinal dose with cannabis oil, so I might try that as well.

but nothing could prepare me for what happened to my mind when I started sitting every single night.

I have been doing vipassana for some time. It does help me focus, but keeping the practice is difficult
My problem is not so much 'the voice in the head', I kind of enjoy the dialogue. The problem is more with focussing on a task and finishing it. Everything that grasps my attention, gets it. Interesting, but pretty counterproductive at times... But you're right, it might be worth the try to pick it up and stick to it...

@everyone: thanks for the advice & tips, gives me a lot to proceed.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Have been meditation on and off, it helps, but not enough.
Neurofeedback might be an interesting option too, have been thinking of building my own brainmachine.

Go for it, there are lots of videos on YT about that method:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=adhs+neurofeedback

Also this:

The results from this study indicate that binaural auditory beat stimulation did not significantly reduce the symptom of inattention in the experimental group. However, parents and adolescents stated that homework problems due to inattention improved during the 3-week study. Parents and participants stated that the modality was easy to use and helpful. Therefore, this modality should be studied over a longer time frame in a larger sample to further its effectiveness to reduce the symptom of inattention in those diagnosed with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0882596308003321

For help with meditation:
The first 30min of this video deal with binaural beats/brainwave entrainment and meditation:

Free binaural beat generators: Gnaural: A Binaural-Beat Audio Generator - SBaGen Binaural Wave Generator and how to use the sbagen syntax.

 

[MultiDimensionalTherapy]

Don´t throw away this idea.:thumb_up:

subject - there are shamans and tribes in south america, that combine
ayahuasca and coca. By the way: Both plants have close mythological connection.

That may be the case. But I highly doubt they are doing it daily, or every few hours to abate symptoms of an illness given the relative short half life of coca.

To be taking something at a high frequency that is cardiotoxic is not conducive to good health.

I tend to believe a lot of our problems can be assisted with dietary changes. You might not get full alleviation of your ADHD but a considerable lifestyle change incorporating good diet is surely going to help rather than dosing on a variety of untested drug interactions.

do not forget we are talking about coca leafs and not cocaine. the leaf contains about 0,5% cocaine, and you chew maybe half gram or less each time. ive seen indigenous in big preparings of ayahuasca, and they where chewing a LOT of leaves to stay awake and with energy during the 10 days of feitio(preparing), and this while taking a lot of aya. they are both conected, and regularly used together in many raditions.

anyway, i dont think its a good long term solution, but it might help until you find something else. if youo do experiments on this, i would start with maybe 2g of SR, or less, and work from this point.

 

[Tryptallmine]

Oops, for some reason when I was reading I saw coca and cocaine. Immediately thinking of the latter. I wonder if its of more use in a tea preparation?

 

[cheiron]

Free binaural beat generators

Thanks for the links! I used to have a programable brainmachine (glasses with blinking leds) to play around with the "frequency following response" of the brain. Always used it to dive deeper in the 4hz realms. Regarding the ADHD thing, I was interested in trying to see if the 12-15 hz frequencies would help with focus, but unfortunately I can't find the brainmachine :?

But these binaural beats use the same principle, and generating them seems very easy to do, and dropping them on my mp3 player will be quit easy...

 

[Mandukeya]

For my ADD I'd say Noopept works about as good as metylphenidate, and much better than piracetam in much much lower doses, without the comedown and nasty side effects. (Long term effects from noopept unknown I guess.)

While weed may help hyperactive (ADHD) people to chill a bit, I find it a disaster for the productivity and focus in my ADD brain. For me, the best medicine is to stay clear of weed.

During weed binges I find that not even coffe+noopept+methylpenidate (which is a quite powerful combo, keep doeses low as they all potentiate each other) can make get me started on tasks I'm not really interested in doing.

Coca tea was (to my initial surprise) available at the ayahuasca center I recently visited while coffe was not on the days of cermony.

 

[BringsUsTogether]

cheiron,

I'm no doctor and not really eligible to give medical advice, but some people have anecdotally reported success in self medicating ADHD with microdoses of LSD.

https://www.reddit.com/r/casualiama/comments/2oncu0/i_microdose_lsd_every_third_day_ama

Could LSD Provide a Possible Cure for ADHD?

This short Blog is simply asking a questions, Regarding the potential for curative effects of LSD 25 on Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Regarding ADHD and LSD: I have an anomalous experie…

crowsnestshamanism.com

 

[cheiron]

Thanks for that tip! I was pondering this idea yesterday, because of the stimulation LSD gives me. I've never done microdoses, but I will certainly try that!

 

[cheiron]

I'll start my first microdose experiment tomorrow morning
looking forward to it!

 

[cheiron]

So far, the microdosing seems like a very very promising alternative.

The problem with methylfenidate (ritalin) is that I loose 'something' with the concentration it gives. Something being: openness, creativity, stuff like that. And the rebound is quite horrible: there is a very tight bandwidth were the effects are nice, below that dose, it gives a severe crash, above that dose I get all sorts of stuff like disturbed sleep, headaches, etc.

But now the microdose lsd. I took 1/8th of a papertrip. My focus has been great today; I feel energized, uplifted, creative, but focussed when needed, aware of my body in a whole new way. it counters a lot of the problems that come with adhd, but in a very subtle way: by increasing my consciousness on the one hand, and the stimulating effect on the other.

So, thanks a lot, BringUsTogether, for the lead to this! I think I will start experimenting with an every-third-day microdose ...