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concerns about lye in dmt extraction

Migrated topic.
lsrvnt

lsrvnt

Rising Star
I have worries about the noxious chemicals used to produce dmt using most of the tecs used on this site. I have up till now used a stb and I can say without doubt that I have gotten much much better over time at getting a purer crystal however It used to have a harsh taste and Im hearing lots of reports on here of harsh vapour or horrible taste. this brings up many concerns for me about the long term damage of using impure substance.

perhaps the long term effects could be worse than any of us realise.

I feel the need to inspect the rituals of ayahuasca and the methods of that method. I feel like it could be the best and healthiest way. I am seriously curious about possible methods of extraction that are less toxic. I am aware of the use of limonene to get a purer crystal however it would still leave trace amounts of the noxious oil. Is there any pure way of extraction or intake besides ayahuasca?

I believe that working with the plants directly is a huge part of the experience giving a naturally regulating cycle however I also believe it calls to me in a way that says to prepare it correctly and traditionally in a brew. just thoughts.

hope everyone on here is doing well <3


not to say you cant strive for total purity as nick sand would appreciate heres some magical alchemy art i made about chemistry as magic
cLMuWne.jpg
 
are art and science not magic? just because you understand something need not remove the wonder from the process.

I feel like you would still end up with trace amounts of hazardous chemicals in the end result. thanks for the epsom salt information. I feel like however even with this you could still probably end up with trace amounts of lye and whatever your non polar solvent is. even if you cure it for days you will still probably end up with trace amounts.

also my point is really that the reports are there of horrible taste often every color of crystal and every level of harshness. from my understanding pure dmt when freebased should have very little taste and very little to no harshness however in experience reports and messages all over this community and others I can say with confidence that that is not the norm for most people extracting. especially beginners and intermediates like myself i believe we could be under risk of producing product that quite frankly could have serious long term consequences

many peoples guru terence mckenna reported smoking some very harsh dmt, breaking through around 50 to 100 times however this is the same man who later died of a brain tumor. not to say that he had not done many other questionable chemicals and concoctions, but this got me thinking of potential long term harms.

I just wonder if perhaps there is a way to extract using less harsh chemicals, or is a strong base and nonpolar solvent the only way besides aya. i know people use acetone and other seemingly worse chemicals with fumerates and im not too interested in that either.

I have had dmt that I would say has hurt me because it was poorly prepared and had that ruin the experience however I have also felt wheezy or short of breath in the days following that experience. I have had strong migraine headaches during a dmt flash however I believe this to be related to a flawed intention I think that It could also very well have something to do with the extraction.

I have also had the purest Ive been able to achieve which I can honestly say was smooth and very little harshness in which I have felt total healing, however even in this case I still am concerned about safety.

I don't know about other people in this thread but my gvg has over the years accumulated a substantial amount of residue that smells of solvent and chemical smell. While I would like to believe that this is no problem or normal which I have heard of people needing to clean their gvg on here before I worry about the toxic residue and how much of it is left in my body.

I am asking for radical honesty because I really see this as a problem. this community should not be pushing techniques which could potentially have really negative long term consequences. I know that this may be blasphemy as many many people on here use a stb tec with a gvg however I really want to talk about these concerns and probe others to see if they have ever felt a similar way.

any other techniques to minimise the effect of hazards in the end product or other natural tec recommendations are welcome.
 
I'm with you on this one...

I don't have the benefit of experience with smoking/vaping to compare, but it always seemed to me that a 10 minute discombobulation would be harder to integrate or gain any meaningful insight from, at least when compared to a slower and much longer brewed experience. I'd be willing to try smoking, but I would also share these concerns with contaminants and would really have to trust the methods for extraction involved.

I also seem to remember Terrence saying that his doctor told him that his tumor wasn't related to his drug use, but then again, who knows really?
 
Yes I think it could just be a mindset shift as I have come to understand more and more people are working directly with the plants themself. I can say for a fact that the breakthroughs I have experienced on a freebased substance have been the most incredible full blast into another realm. I have only ever had the experience this way and I wonder if the same experience is even desirable with a brewed method that lasts so long.

I really hear what your saying about the western need and desire to distil down and crystalise other molecules like sugar from sugar cane. I think this is good food for thought when pondering these questions however I more approach the situation with more physical caution. I really feel as though this is possibly just a mindset that could change overtime.

Ive seen many people praise changa or gvg as the best method however are we missing the potential of the full and ancient experience of consuming it in a ritual as a brew?

my mind often wanders to new methods and rituals and new ways of guiding ones self through the experience and creating our own maps to explore hyperspace beyond the hyperspace lexicon. I know we cannot forget the ancient wisdom that comes down to us from the healer tribes of the shipibo or the huichol. in many cultures they develop their own cosmic forces and entities personal and cultural and experience them in this other plane. perhaps this is the greatest moment of their culture and myth coming to life before their eyes. perhaps this is possible and I would say already beginning to take place. I would say that the longer experience sounds like you could have more time to experience and learn from these spirits and places.

as a novice to ayahuasca I cannot speak on the true difference however already it demands my full respect.
I feel fear and terror at the thought of a dmt experience lasting over 4 hours this fully shakes me to my core. i'm sure it dose anyone who has encountered the mystery of the breakthrough via gvg or other method.

always curious
 
Are you ever near cars? Do you live in or go to a city? Do you have any furniture in your house that isn´t self-made? Is any of your food wrapped in plastic? If any of those is true, you are likely being exposed to a lot more chemicals that in big quantity may have negative health effects, as compared to consuming a few mgs of DMT when extracted properly. Id be more worried of non-polar solvents that dont evap clean as we warn people about.

We are exposed to sooooo many chemicals on a daily basis that most of us dont ever question, and yet we nitpick some specific chemical that for some or other reason calls our attention. I´d wager you have a lot more important things to worry about in regards to being exposed to some chemicals.

Lye is used in preparation of food. In the country where I now reside, lye is sold in the supermarket and there are instructions on the bottle on how to use it for pickling olives. Everything is calculated so amounts found are not dangerous.

Same with soap, most soap you use or see around has used lye to saponify some oils. You know why people shouldn´t be worried? because there is a very good calculation on how much lye is used versus how much oil is present in the ingredients, and chemically there wont be enough lye to saponify all the oil, let alone to be left over unreacted.

With DMT extraction, if you do things right, there wont be anything of lye. First of all you just dont transfer lye with your non polar, let the layers settle and you have no lye. Even if you were not careful, with a couple of dilute sodium carb/bicarb washes you would easily get rid of any lye, because that´s just how chemistry works, your lye will dissolve in your water wash, it wont be in the non polar layer. And generally you repeat the wash 2 times, so you wouldn´t even detect traces of it anymore.

Also, I think you seem to misunderstand some things. Limonene doesnt give a ¨purer crystal¨, it is pretty much the same, if you clean it up and crystalize well, but with DMT you have to salt out since freeze precip or evap dont work. Also, how is limonene ´noxious´ ? You are aware if you consume oranges you are consuming some amount of limonene right? And many plates are made with oranges and go in the oven for example so you also breathe those vapors in. Not to mention you can easily remove the limonene traces with a simple wash of the salted dmt crystals.

You know, even the air you breathe, the oxygen you inhale, damages your body through oxidation. Or the UV radiation from the sun which help us make vitamin d but also destroys DNA in cells and can give you cancer. Life is full of tradeoffs, and its about being smart and informed enough to avoid the bad tradeoffs, and find the best deals, but not being naive thinking that there´s any ¨only goodies¨ option.

Be careful not falling into a blind chemophobia. Pretty much everything is made of chemicals

Also, regarding ayahuasca, I dont think this is an either-or situation. I mean, if you like the idea of ayahuasca sure why not do it? I personally feel that long term, it gives me more to work with, in terms of integration and lessons for daily life, and it feels it gives me some health benefits that smoked DMT doesnt (anti-oxidants, antiparasitic effects, serotonin platelet transporter upregulation as natural-antidepressant etc). That being said, I am not avoiding vapped DMT because I´m affraid of lye, its just not what I generally seek, but I have done plenty and some people might be in the time of their lives where it fits and is a positive experience. Plus you can also extract in ways that don´t use lye, we have a whole subforum dedicated to it, and the product can be equivalent if things are done right. We also have a whole health and safety section dealing with practical suggestions on how to avoid damage from the extraction chemicals and proceedure or mental issues.

Lastly, pure freebase DMT has a very caustic taste/feeling on the mouth regardless of how it was extracted, and smoking it will be harsh vs vapping it can be smooth regardless if it was lye extracted or not.
 
You need to bear in mind that sodium hydroxide is an approved food additive, used for pH correction, and acetone occurs naturally in the human body as a by-product of metabolic processes. When you consider what amount of sodium hydroxide contamination will occur in a usual dose of vaporised DMT, and how much of that will actually make it into the lungs, it should be readily apparent that the amount of CO2 from the lighter flame typically used would be more than sufficient to neutralise the NaOH on the way into the lungs.

It is fair to say, however, that poorly volatile contaminants from suboptimal hydrocarbon solvents are something to be avoided. I too have pondered the connection between McKenna's description of DMT as being "an orange, waxy substance, smelling of mothballs" and his premature demise from a brain tumour. We should all know now how sparkling white crystals of pure DMT should look, and the smell is not of mothballs but faintly sweet and floral if anything.

BUT there is an art and a certain magic as well as plain science to DMT extraction. To put it most simply, remember the MEAD priciple - Magic is Empowerment by Attention to Detail.



are we missing the potential of the full and ancient experience of consuming it in a ritual as a brew?
Click to expand...
Don't forget that there's conclusive evidence that plant material containing DMT was also being smoked thousands of years ago. Changa isn't particularly new, in the grand scheme of things.


Fear is the mindkiller.


PS Always clean your pipe regularly. IPA washings, after evaporation, can be recycled back into subsequent extractions.
 
I moved the thread here, because it really isn't an adv. chem. topic.

there is no trace amount of lye carryover, because as I mentioned, lye doesn't migrate into the non polar solvents. The basic solution has a lot of anions (OH-), which carry a negative charge. Nonpolar solvents accept molecules that are neutral, not charged. In highly basic solution, DMT is neutral.

I've analyzed extracts before, lye contam would stick out as adducts. I haven't seen trace lye contam, due to the aformentioned theory. The noxious aroma, even as reported by mckenna (he described as "like camphor" ) is due to the structure of dmt itself.
 
I think this may be the case. thank you all for your information you have lessened a lot of worries. I still am concerned about impurity and pretending like it doesn't exist is just as harmful as being chemaphobic so I appreciate your shared concerns of solvent impurity and contamination with the aqueous solution.

I think the plant rout is the best for me however it dose scare me.

I do not regret my personal use of vaped dmt those experiences are the most important and life changing experiences I have ever had. I am infinitely grateful for the tecs passed down and improved over so many years I just feel that need to connect to something more natural and long term as well as share my journey.

ps: its all love but i feel like I just got hazed by a bunch of chemists lmao
i am a true amature scientist just stumbling into this GREAT mystery.
all love
be well.
 
As for keeping *smoking* the most healthy way:

You could built / buy a device that truly only evaporates the DMT with no cumbustion.

Speaking of this you would no longer create changa (because this involves the usage of "unneccessary" plant material, that is also partially combusted, making it a step less healthy) and carry over to EATING the harmalas (if you want to have the MAOI effect) and just vaping freebase DMT.

The best deives to just VAPE the dmt with no overburn and therefore getting 100 % pure DMT Vapor which is widely regarded als absolutely non-toxic is for example:

The Crafty Vaporizer with a liquid Pad to hold the Spice

or

A glass Bond with an 14 mm to 18 mm glass connector in which you drop a Vapor Stone (by Health Stone Glass).

Both methods ensure that you will totally only evaporate the spice, the vapor will only contain evaporated DMT and no oxidized / carbonized / burned chemicals. Even plant oils or impurities that still stick in the DMT (which are regarded as harmless) will not evaporate in most cases as they should normally require higher temps.

This should be the way for purists to get the cleanest hit possible.

You could also replace the Vapor Stone with a GVG, but the vapor stone is basically just a GVG, that functions as a Bong instead of just being an advanced pipe and is therefore preferable.

:love:
 
lsrvnt said:
ps: its all love but i feel like I just got hazed by a bunch of chemists lmao
i am a true amature scientist just stumbling into this GREAT mystery.
all love
be well.
Click to expand...
Your interpretation might not be used to this way of communicating.

All chemists replies were well meant and to help you out, due to the nature of the chemistry involved we like to keep things factual to prevent any confusion.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
indeed

I apologize, I often forget that chemistry is a different language. The nature of an acid/base extraction is exclusion. The solvents that are selected are as such, to exclude impurities. I added the epsom salt drying technique as an added precaution. I can sympathize, especially in these times of reduced regulations, the aversion to chemicals. As has been mentioned, we do take that into consideration when offering advice.

myself, and endlessness, are involved in the area of chem that specifically looks for trace contamination. That is quality control, and an important function of harm reduction. I also understand that people still have an aversion to vaporization of purified compounds, and ayahuasca may just be the path for you. It's all good.
 
I apologize if I sounded harsh in any way. I honestly just mean to put things in perspective so you realize if you do things right, lye really shouldnt be one of your concerns, plus, you have other options if you want (check the sustainable extractions subforum, for example this method).

Here´s the main concerns regarding final product, and how to avoid them:

Solvent impurities - use clean chems, read ingredients, do an evap test before using,

Solvent traces trapped within crystals - Redissolve crystals in less toxic clean evapping solvents like acetone or ethanol and evap again to untrap and clean off the other solvent´s traces.

Base remains - Dilute basic washes of non-polar

There are other risks of using those chemicals and getting exposed to them while extracting, instead of with the final product, and these are more pressing concerns imo (inhaling solvents, spills, getting highly basic substance on skin or eyes, fires, etc). All of those are things we talk about in health and safety section and within the extraction teks themselves. Its important to be clear what are the main risks and deserve a lot of attention.

I hope the message you received is not that we think you shouldn´t question or worry, but rather that, after worrying and questioning,you look at the evidence and make an informed decision on what things are worth your worry and what things aren´t .

Be well
 
and as far as magic is concerned...
I'll admit, even as a scientist, the experience itself is where the magic lies. People have tried to reduce the experience to mathematical algorithms, and chemical reactions, which I even feel does it no justice. The experience isn't necessarily repeatable, but the extraction process is, assuming the potency of the starting material is consistent.
 
The Traveler said:
lsrvnt said:
ps: its all love but i feel like I just got hazed by a bunch of chemists lmao
i am a true amature scientist just stumbling into this GREAT mystery.
all love
be well.
Click to expand...
Your interpretation might not be used to this way of communicating.

All chemists replies were well meant and to help you out, due to the nature of the chemistry involved we like to keep things factual to prevent any confusion.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
Click to expand...

I see that thanks for the clarification Im slowly adjusting to the wealth of knowledge on here even though I have studied these forms and pages for so long I still know very little. I appreciate the facts keep em coming :). I appreciate the understanding of everyone on here as I learn and grow.
 
endlessness said:
I apologize if I sounded harsh in any way. I honestly just mean to put things in perspective so you realize if you do things right, lye really shouldnt be one of your concerns, plus, you have other options if you want (check the sustainable extractions subforum, for example this method).

Here´s the main concerns regarding final product, and how to avoid them:

Solvent impurities - use clean chems, read ingredients, do an evap test before using,

Solvent traces trapped within crystals - Redissolve crystals in less toxic clean evapping solvents like acetone or ethanol and evap again to untrap and clean off the other solvent´s traces.

Base remains - Dilute basic washes of non-polar

There are other risks of using those chemicals and getting exposed to them while extracting, instead of with the final product, and these are more pressing concerns imo (inhaling solvents, spills, getting highly basic substance on skin or eyes, fires, etc). All of those are things we talk about in health and safety section and within the extraction teks themselves. Its important to be clear what are the main risks and deserve a lot of attention.

I hope the message you received is not that we think you shouldn´t question or worry, but rather that, after worrying and questioning,you look at the evidence and make an informed decision on what things are worth your worry and what things aren't .

Be well
Click to expand...

this is exactly what type of information I was looking for! thank you! I really have been considering extracting again for the purposes of changa creation as that has certainly sparked my interest despite my worries, however i'm teetering on my seet between changa and just straight aya. We will see as time comes my plants are still just baby teens :)
 
Try and think about it in terms of simple electrical charges, which is what it actually boils down to. Try and bond two negative or two positive electromagnetic fields. The universe says no. Down on molecular level its all about polarity.

The only danger in using lye is when dealing with the aqueous solution and not taking care.

If you have any further concerns, may I guide you towards this foodstuff:

Lutefisk - Wikipedia :thumb_up:
 
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