Connoisseur of Cactus

[tribo]

Greetings all!

Thanks for contributing to such a great forum!

I would like to share my passion for cactus cultivation and consumption with fellow nexians in the proper threads. Over the last five years or so, I have raised many san pedro, t. peruvianus, t. bridgesii and the other sacred cactus from seed and successfully grafted dozens of specimens. Of particular interest to me is the grafting of seedling cactus to pereskiopsis which allows for the development of young cactus much faster (10x in first year) than seedlings grown on their own roots. Sacred cacti vary greatly in their chemical makeup, so it advantageous to select the best individuals from a large group to clone.

More recently, within the past year, I have developed an interest in other entheogenic allies such as the main topic of this forum, spice and harmala. Experience from many previous cactus a/b extractions and growing knowledge of organic chemistry has helped make the first few spice extractions and conversions greatly successful. However the success of these experiments would not have been remotely possible without the great knowledge base contained on this forum.

As I have learned so much from the generous offerings of members of this forum, I would like to humbly give back to the community particularly in the area of cactus and a/b extraction in which I have several years experience.

Thank you all again for such a wonderful forum! 8)

 

[Shrabbit420]

Wow, that's pretty cool man. I saw this a long time ago on another forum. I've always wondered a few things,
How much growth can a trichocereus put on per year, like how many inches?
What happens when they get really big? can the pereskiopsis hold the weight of the other cacti on top of it? or does it need some extra support?
Have you gotten to sample any of these to test their strength? i.e. does it make the cactus more/less/same potency?

They look really good and healthy. Have you done any Lophophora Williamsii grafting yet? I've always wondered the difference between grafting a Williamsii straight to a pereskiopsis, vs. grafting a trichocereus unto a pereskiopsis then the Williamsii on top of that trichocereus.

And are you growing those guys in hydro? If so, what kind of nutrients are you using.

 

[tribo]

Thanks for your kind words!

First off, trichos with fully developed roots grown in the midwest U.S. put on about 12 inches per growing season if given plenty of sunshine, supplemental lighting, and adequate nutrients. They will probably do much better with calli sun! The adults are fed gen hydro floragro and humbolt nutrients at approx 10-20-20 during the peak growing season with pH between 7 and 8.

The pereskiopsis can support about 12 to 18 inches of growth before getting too top-heavy, which usually takes about 1 year. Tricho seedlings are typically grafted to peres within a few months, and grow them out to 12 - 18 inches before de-grafting them to grow their own roots. Usually trichos only grow 3 or 4 inches their first year where I live, so grafting them to a peres can really speed things up!

The pereskiopsis are grown in hydroton under 400W MH and watered 1/day. Their nutrients are alternated between Gen Hydro FloraGro 15-15-15 (equal micro and florabloom) and humbolt nutrients (i forget the exact NPK ratio). The peres are pretty forgiving when it comes to nutes and prefer pH 5.5 - 7.

Cacti take a long time to mature and build up alks and typically require over a year of stressing before taking a cutting. The cutting is then aged in the dark for several months before consumption. Seedlings grafted on peres will probably be weak for at least a few years until they develop their own roots and accumulate alkaloids under their skin. One could taste the cactus flesh left over from grafts as a rough guesstimate of potential... the more bitter the better!

Several of the live cacti bought on the web turned out to be pretty disappointing, which prompted the interest in growing a large population and the selection of the most potent individuals for cloning and propagation.

Williamsii grafts well to both pereskiopsis and trichocereus. Typically the lophos grown from seed are initially grafted to a peres and after a year removed and grafted onto a fully rooted tricho which stimulates the lopho to sprout offsets all over the place! I have only tried lopho on peres or lopho on tricho, never tried grafting the three stack combo of lopho on tricho on peres, but I'm sure it would work and look pretty wild!!! Lophos take at least 5 years to reach maturity even when grafted (and atleast 10 years in the wild!) and I have no idea if any specific grafting stocks or strateties would help speed up the process... perhaps a new experiment is in order?

 

[Shrabbit420]

I figured they would get top heavy. What if the entire length of pereskiopsis and an inch or two of the trichocereus were buried with small gravel or large sand to support the weight? I believe this would prevent rot and still provide very fast growth. But I've always been curious about the alkaloid content from a cactus that was left to grow like this, but from what I gather it has less to do with the root system and more to do with the environment its grown in (i.e. the stress it endures).

Have you been able to sample any of the lopho that was grown on a tricho? I've only heard rumors that they are just as potent as they would be on their own root system, but somehow I feel that the sped up growth would result in a less potent version.

I will definitely be trying all of this once I have the disposable income to support all this research, until then I can only dream.

Also, the tricho has to be aged in the dark for several months? I thought it was several weeks or just until it had calloused at the least? But I have little experience with this practice and can only go on vague rumors spread throughout the internet.

 

[tribo]

One major drawback of using the peres as a rootstock is that the stem becomes 'corky' over time and within a year or two and transmits fewer nutrients to the grafted specimen, its growth slows markedly. Also since trichos grow to 3 to 6 m in the wild, their root systems can get much bigger over time than the peres root system. Trichos are pretty resistant to rot compared to most other cacti including lophos, so lophos are often permanently grafted to the trichos for the reasons above.

The lophos are still very young, only about one year from seed... the largest graft is about the size of a raquetball so no sampling of them yet. It would be nice to let the grafts flower first to ensure a self sustaining seed supply.

You pose an excellent question regarding whether or not stressing after taking a cutting is an effective way to improve alkaloid content or profile. As it stands, I have found no conclusive evidence as to the best way of stress prepping a cactus for harvest. I have read on other forums that san pedro is often cut and kept in the dark for about 3 months after harvesting by locals (don't know if they were shamans or not) in its native habitat. I don't know if this is done instead of water stressing the plant or in addition to stressing pre-harvest. :? This is a question that SWIM would like to answer by testing sections of the same cactus that has been simply water stressed, and another that has been water stressed and aged in darkness for some months. But without GC/MS data it may be difficult to determine if the alkaloid content is increasing, or if the alkaloid profile is shifting, since there are many different alkaloids present in most sacred cacti. Here is an interesting article that investigates photoperiod and light color on alkaloid production in lophos. Don't know whether these conditions have similar effects on trichos, but it would be nice to test and find out!:lol:

 

[Shrabbit420]

Have you heard of, or tried, injecting the cactus with dopamine to increase alkaloid content? There is some info about it here: Erowid Cacti Vault : Cactus Growers Guide , I think there is a thread on the nexus about doping cacti as well. Special care would need to be taken to prevent infections though.

 

[tribo]

SWIM has read of doping sacred cactus at erowid, but never tried this... Maybe try the pharma-grade sterile dopamine injections?

 

[Shrabbit420]

DOPAMINE HCL INJECTION <BR> 40 MG / ML , 25 X 10 ML <BR> NDC # 00409-9104-20 , 10grams for $50 (+shipping), that sounds like a good deal to me. Although I have never tried using this source or even tried doping my cacti yet. My pedro died a couple years ago and now all I have is a cuzcoensis, which I plan on doping this summer.

 

[Mitakuye Oyasin]

Nice work Tribo. I always wondered if one could graft one tricho to multiple peres stocks, like say 4 for more root coverage. Do you think this would work? Also interested in your extraction experiences with cacti, what works best for you, what you find yields best, do you work with fresh or dried and powdered cacti, etc. Welcome and thank you for your contributions.

 

[tribo]

Mitakuye Oyasin, thank you for your response and kind support!

SWIM hasn't ever tried grafting multiple peres to a single tricho seedling since the one to one overlap seems to fit very well, and the one to one grafting setup maximizes the number of tricho/lopho seedlings which can be grafted. It is very possible to graft multiple lophos or tricho seedlings to a single thick (10+cm diameter), well developed tricho rootstock since its vascular ring is quite large. It may be possible to graft multiple peres to a single year-old or larger tricho, however practically speaking this may be a difficult task since one must ensure the vascular bundle of multiple rooted peres is in firm contact with the tricho and undisturbed for atleast two weeks until the graft has healed. HERE is a great pictoral reference for grafting seedlings to pereskiopsis. The site is a great reference for larger cactus grafting as well.


SWIM is working on compiling a complete A/B cactus tek, but this is all he's put together so far. SWIM has tried many methods of cactus extraction using live cuttings, dried powder, and dried chips with mostly A/B procedures. SWIM's A/B tech was conceived after reading 69ron's limonene STB tech here and Nanook's A/B tech here and salting procedure similar to that described by K. Trout and is well suited for batch sizes of 500g to 1000g of dried chips. SWIM never uses Nanooks non polar solvent or salting method since adding ammonium to neutralize sulfuric acid is questionable and may result in significant residual non-volitile ammonium sulfate. SWIM uses dried chips and chunks from live cuttings since it reduces filtering time dramatically. However, there is most likely still some alks trapped in the cactus chunks that would be more accessible if the cactus were pulped or powderized.

Aqueous Acid Extraction:
Vinegar is always used for the initial extraction. SWIM has cooked the cactus chunks in a pressure cooker 3 times for 30-45 minutes each... this works but SWIM feels some alks may be scorched in the process. SWIM has also cooked the chunks 3 times in a crock pot or large stock pot on a low simmer for an hour or two each time. This slow and steady method works every time! If time permits, freezing the cactus between cooks helps break open cell walls and speed the process. After filtering the cactus juice through a t-shirt and old dress shirt, it slowly simmered down to the consistency of heavy cream.

Freebasing Alkaloids:
SWIM uses NaOH to base the cactus juice to around pH = 12 to 13, and copious amounts of NaCl (75+g/l) to reduce the solubility of free-base alkaloids in the aqueous solution and improve the resolution of liquid phases. Limonene works very well as the non-polar solvent, and is added in a ratio of 1 part limonene to 3 parts aqueous phase. SWIM marks the line separating the phases for reference when the phases separate. SWIM uses either large wine jugs or small carboys and turns them end over end and rolls them back and forth to transfer the alks from the aqueous to non-polar phase. The jug is set upright to allow the layers to settle over several hours or until the emulsion has cleared before the limonene is siphoned off and salted. Usually 4 limonene pulls are sufficient, but if SWIM was able to precipitate alks from the last pull, another pull will most likely be fruitful.

Salting Alkaloids:
The alkaloid salting procedure has been optimized for final purity and makes use of a sep funnel. If you've got a sep funnel this step is a blast to watch! The procedure is similar to that described by K. Trout. Alks are salted with a few drops (literally start with a few!) of 10% HCl into the limonene extract and shaken vigorously in a sep funnel until white solid precipitates out. A few more drops of HCl are added until no more solid precips out. Looks like a snow globe! Its helpful to keep track of the number of drops added. If the white solid precipitates dissolve into a brown aqueous layer at the bottom, too much acid was added and the brown aqueous phase can be removed and evaporated as is. It's often better to not add quite enough HCl to get a cleaner product and do another d-limo pull than to drop in too much acid and get brown acidic solution that will require considerable cleanup. If several pulls have been performed and the limo doesn't precipitate anything after the first few drops of 10% HCl are added, the base aqueous phase is most likely exhausted.

Alakaloid Salt Recovery & Purification:
5 to 10 ml of distilled H2O is added to the sep funnel and gently swirled until all the precipitates are dissolved. A couple of distilled water rinses should remove the last of the alks. The aqueous phase is collected and combined in a glass mason jar for evaporation in a WELL VENTILATED hot water bath. HCl vapors are extremely corrosive! Once crystals have formed and most but not all of the liquid is evaporated, the extract is washed several times with 30 ml of cold acetone to remove discolouration and excess acid. At this point the extract is usually a very pearly off-white color. If one desires, it may be washed with IPA or recrystallized in d-water.

 

[dg]

like the grafts, good work


i strongly disagree that stressing is a good thing to do.
first, these are living creatures,/as worthy as you or i of a good life,/ starve a living thing for human enjoyment?-wtf
second, yeah the cut might be stronger, but will be 1/2 the size, so really you have less alks than in a healthy plant.

 

[Mitakuye Oyasin]

Cool, thank again Tribo. SWIM thinks he has found a small treasure trove of SP in SoCal and is interested in the best way of extracting - fresh or dried.

Has Tribo ever made resin from fresh cactus material?

 

[tribo]

Thanks for your reply DG!

Point taken with regards to treating all living beings with care and compassion. I will certainly do some more research on the thresholds of water-stressing and whether it does or does not increase the overall alkaloid content, or simply reduce the proportional water content in the cactus. I've read that cacti can lose up to 70% of their water without complication, but have not tried this to find out. I have not watered my dormant over-wintered cacti at all except a light misting here and there to keep the roots from dying, and their ribs are still full.
If water-stressing is ineffective, then it makes the most sense to grow the healthiest cactus the fastest, as opposed to stressing and stunting their growth. Assuming that one doesn't water-stress the cactus during the growing season (with-holding water during over-wintering only), when would you suggest an optimal time for harvest to maximize alks?

Thanks!


Mitakuye Oyasin,
SWIM usually uses dried chunks for A/B ext. SWIM has made resin by drying the initial aqueous vinegar extract... the result was unfortunately very gross. It would absorb moisture from the air and skin and become a nasty sticky slime when packing into capsules. SWIM has read that cactus tea is pretty easy to make and not really that unpleasant to drink.
Please note, the most dominant cultivar associated with San Pedro in the United States is a very poor entheogen, and are often described as Pachanot because of this. I have several of these, they are great as grafting stocks and still very pretty, but that's about it.

 

[Shrabbit420]

Hey tribo, I just asked the source of my cactus to share his harvesting info with me. I know that whatever he does is the best way to do it. The dried cactus I received from him in the past has always been super potent, one experience gave me OEV's from a dose of 9 grams of dried green flesh. I wish I would've done an extract on it so I could know the percentage of alkaloids, but this stuff is always fantastic.

As soon as I hear back from him I will post the info onto this thread, and hopefully we can get it added to the wiki as well so everyone will have this info.

Peace, and Love.

 

[dg]

Thanks for your reply DG!

Point taken with regards to treating all living beings with care and compassion. I will certainly do some more research on the thresholds of water-stressing and whether it does or does not increase the overall alkaloid content, or simply reduce the proportional water content in the cactus. I've read that cacti can lose up to 70% of their water without complication, but have not tried this to find out. I have not watered my dormant over-wintered cacti at all except a light misting here and there to keep the roots from dying, and their ribs are still full.
If water-stressing is ineffective, then it makes the most sense to grow the healthiest cactus the fastest, as opposed to stressing and stunting their growth. Assuming that one doesn't water-stress the cactus during the growing season (with-holding water during over-wintering only), when would you suggest an optimal time for harvest to maximize alks?

Thanks!

the problem with any data related to "stressing" is is is super subjective, and full of opinions,
like an a hole we all have one

if you find any journal entries(real science) regarding non native(DOMESTIC) growth factors and alk production of trichocereus pls post here, and pm me..

subjectively, winter or early spring has been a good time to thin the herd
(over the years winter harvests have been the most productive for me, but i have little real data)

 

[dg]

Cool, thank again Tribo. SWIM thinks he has found a small treasure trove of SP in SoCal and is interested in the best way of extracting - fresh or dried.

Has Tribo ever made resin from fresh cactus material?

warning,
truck loads of old growth socal sp has yeilded .01-.1%(% by vol dry!) in the past.
weak, weak material if not fed loads on N over the years (and they aren't typically)

not that i really care, but have been there...

 

[Mitakuye Oyasin]

Thanks for the warning dg, much appreciated. Is it even worth taking cuttings from to try to grow out under better conditions and try to improve its power? What are the best cacti varieties for sale to look for to grow your own?

 

[tribo]

the problem with any data related to "stressing" is is is super subjective, and full of opinions,
like an a hole we all have one

if you find any journal entries(real science) regarding non native(DOMESTIC) growth factors and alk production of trichocereus pls post here, and pm me..

subjectively, winter or early spring has been a good time to thin the herd
(over the years winter harvests have been the most productive for me, but i have little real data)

Posted : Monday, June 28, 2010 7:31:52 PM

ime, high n levels in soil help some

Thanks for sharing the harvest times that work for you... This is great news for SWIM! I'll try to keep my a hole to my self for the time being until I have credible scientific evidence to share, or have figured out what works best for me Also wondering if the high N levels help boost alks for specific trichos, or individuals? Also when you say high N levels, is there a certain N-P-K ratio that works well for trichos?

I've heard that there exist certain high potentency clones out there, so I convinced SWIM to start growing bridgesii, pachanoi, and peruvianus from seeds in hopes of finding a high potency clone that grows well in SWIM's climate. Here is a link to a thread about tricho species potency. Juul's Giant has been reported by some on many forums to be a highly potent clone, but Dr. Shulgin has shown here that even extracts from these clones can vary greatly in composition. SWIM doesn't know yet whether any of SWIM's cacti are potent or impotent, but has about 60cm of t peruvianus stock ready to be thinned out SWIM enjoys growing the rather impotent pachanot anyway cause they make great rootstocks for lophos.

Also found a good thread on cacti doping here

 

[dg]

sorry if i came off as rude,
the stressing issue has bothered me for some time...some of the things people do to the Sacred cacti, sigh

any good balanced food(like what you'd feed veggies)

i've been using osmocote for years, as i dont have time to feed them as often as i should
(osmocote is what they use in nurseries for time release nutes, i believe is 20-20-20)

although you might consider going organic if you ever plan on consuming them

here is a picture just for fun

 

[tribo]

Thanks for the wicked pron, dg! One can learn quite a lot from a good healthy debate! Love all the beautiful cacti pics you have posted elsewhere and here! How old is that lopho pictured there, how long did it take to flower after grafting?

SWIM has had the fastest growth with soil-less media in his particular climate (often cold and wet), which is very unlike the tricho's natural habitat. After rot claimed several left outside through a freak rainshowers, SWIM switched over to soil-less, and noticed faster growth rates and can now leave cactus out all summer long. The soil-less mix requires daily watering for the fastest t. peruvianus, and weekly for the slower t. pachanoi (or pachanot?) though the peak growth period.

SWIM grows chilis, tomatoes, and other vegies in the summer also, and uses a 16-8-23 hydro forumla during vegetative growth which SWIM suspects may be too much N for cacti? SWIM has been using even NPK 10-10-10 or 15-15-15 for trichos and peres/peres grafts for a while now, and it seems to work fine.

SWIM has used Humboldt Nutes Natural Bloom and Grow until he discovered that the Natural Bloom contained 22.0 ppm of cadmium and didn't like the thought of a "natural" product containing significant quantities of a toxic heavy metal! Also has quite a lot of nickel @ 42.2 ppm. REF here Soft rock phosphate containing cadmium is certainly naturally occurring, but then again so are uranium deposits...:? In all reality, SWIM doesn't know the threshold of cadmium toxicity or buildup within trichos... anyone know?

Here is a baby pic of some t. peruvianus and some others.