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Consciousness as transient property of organized matter

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burnt

burnt

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Senior member Chemical engineer Chemical engineer extraordinaire
SWIM took a journey recently and came up with some questions that maybe someone will have some insight into.

SWIM recently has been trying to come to grips with being a mortal temporary being. Why? Because reality forces SWIM to do so at a certain point its just the stage SWIM is at in life. SWIM can't rely on faith anymore for anything its a waste of time. Psychedelics surprisingly or perhaps not surprisingly have been very helpful accepting that.

Many people seem to interpret eastern philosophy and mysticism as saying "reality is the illusion" and "consciousness is the root of reality". SWIM however is now taking the opposite viewpoint "consciousness is the temporary illusion". If you think about ego death and about the buddha and about all the other mystical philosophies you can see the trend. Acceptance of change and acceptance of your own individual limit on being. If your scratch away the mystical cultural baggage such as reincarnation (buddha was a hindu originally just like jesus was a jew originally) you are left with a completely scientific materialistic view on consciousness and mortality.

I don't think many people like interpreting these philosophies this way but its the only way that really makes sense. Its the only way that is really challenging. Relying on faith that you are immortal is a wild guessing game. Accepting your mortality in this grand universe is humbling.

I guess the theme of SWIMs journey was acceptance of the temporary nature of SWIMs individual consciousness which is nothing more then the illusion of the mind. It was rather intense. This theme has reoccured on trips throughout SWIMs life where entire cycles of the universe were going around and around and around and SWIM and all existence was caught in the cycle until it accepted just stopping and resting eternally. It was scary as hell but amazing to break out of and realize "wait I am still alive no need to deal with this yet". But at some point we must all "deal with it".

Anyone feel the same?
 
Yes, of course we are mortal. We are temporary biological machines, and it certaintly has an expiration date. This pattern repeats itself all over: Plants and animals die, stars "die", things pop in and out of existence. It's beautiful! But existence itself seems to always be there, but it varies in its forms. We are just provisional conditions existing on behalf of others.

If we do not forget the conditions on which we are allowed to exist, we find ourselves just as much part of anything as everything else. We are not isolated cases, but dependent on the other systems in which we find ourselves, and so we are part of it as well. If you follow this thought, backed greatly up with everything we have learned through science and reckognize the patterns between ourselves and nature and vice versa you can, in some sense, say that you are "eternal", whatever that may mean to you. Not the individual you of course, but what you really are. And what you really are is pretty much just what everything else is right? - The universe organizing itself in countless combinations creating up a whole, a whole that consists of countless systems and conditions. Everything from the relation between the electron and the atom, to the galaxies, to our trafic system etc. In the deepest sense of all of this there is only one system isnt it? And that is the system of the universe as a whole, and whatever may or may not lie behind. And I for one got no problem to identify myself with this if I think a little bit further than my individual and temporary condition of being and accept the nature of its mortality.
 
I really don't know what to think about it, i believe, like i said many times, that reality is reality, no ones thinking changes it, it is what it is. But consciousness could go either way to me, it could be a simple product of brain activity, or could be a thing the brain uses as a tool, like the universe has a consciousness tank, and everything borrows from it, not that your aware of things, but that you feel alive, even a plant, but i think i just LIKE to think that, truly the more reasonble answer is a product of the brain. I think its possible to make a robot think like a human, even feel, emotions. You would just need some very large and complex programming, like our brains!
 
yeah I feel the same way, I mean I think it's the same brutal conclusion that lead Darwin to believe he had "killed god"... I believe we gained self-awareness because [via our genes] our physical forms were in the right time, place and configuration to be able to survive... in many ways I believe consciousness is just an arbitrator for my machine-like process functions... I have no reason to believe that illusion will continue after my biology has failed... I have to admit these thoughts alone leave your mind with a kind of emptiness, I can accept it of myself and I believe as the arbitrator I rule over my lower lewel animalstic processes, but I don't like observing other humans with this attitude because with a lot people you find they are not self-actualised the same way you are... I think this may be the key...

I believe you have to look at the positive aspects of existence as much as possible, and accept there is a huge vacuum of things we don't understand... I believe we're very very lucky to exist for all it's horror, and it's amazing to be a human because we're so capable... theres a huge difference between what humans can do and what they actually do.... I believe in a crude sense we're the deitys, masters of science on this planet and if you just look at the work that's already been done... theres no reason to believe that humans aren't capable of achieving "enlightment" and immortality through their understanding of the universe. I guess this is kind of a dharma concept in buddist terms.... but to me quite frankly, the more science that comes out, I'm starting to think the nature of the universe is one where ANYTHING is possible... that's what infinity means and I believe humans can master it.

Now that's my problem, I personally feel very disappointed at the level of progress and we can't seem to get our act together and that depresses me... it's like it's hard to have a positive universal outlook when theres people starving, dying needlessly, everyone's depressed, everyone's cynical, everyone's helpless... I never thought I'd feel this much anxiety about the world crisis'... I believe this is a very gloomy time to live in and in some sense we've forgotten how to love one another... I mean, we're all in it together yet we're all afraid of each other in some sense.... perspective is really missing.

I hate to drop the q bomb, but all this quantum gravity stuff could reveal all kinds of super-surprises.. I mean I can imagine human's building a machine where you can literally choose what kind of universe you want to live in.... sounds insane, but strange things do happen... my guess is that you'll be reviewing your existential/ontological viewpoint in the future, so if this one sucks, maybe the next one will be better.
 
If you follow this thought, backed greatly up with everything we have learned through science and reckognize the patterns between ourselves and nature and vice versa you can, in some sense, say that you are "eternal", whatever that may mean to you. Not the individual you of course, but what you really are. And what you really are is pretty much just what everything else is right?
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Well put. I think this is what people often experience on psychedelic and in mystical states. SWIM certainly has. But SWIM thinks some people take it as confirmation of the existence of a soul and immortality which I think is incorrect interpretation for reasons I've probably stated on the forum before.

but i think i just LIKE to think that, truly the more reasonble answer is a product of the brain.
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All evidence so far points to this being the case. Of course we are limited in what we know and we will probably have some surprises down the road. Doesn't hurt to keep an open mind but keeping an open mind involves being skeptical at the same time. For SWIM anyway.

Now that's my problem, I personally feel very disappointed at the level of progress and we can't seem to get our act together and that depresses me... it's like it's hard to have a positive universal outlook when theres people starving, dying needlessly, everyone's depressed, everyone's cynical, everyone's helpless... I never thought I'd feel this much anxiety about the world crisis'... I believe this is a very gloomy time to live in and in some sense we've forgotten how to love one another... I mean, we're all in it together yet we're all afraid of each other in some sense.... perspective is really missing.
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Agreed.

I hate to drop the q bomb, but all this quantum gravity stuff could reveal all kinds of super-surprises.. I mean I can imagine human's building a machine where you can literally choose what kind of universe you want to live in.... sounds insane, but strange things do happen... my guess is that you'll be reviewing your existential/ontological viewpoint in the future, so if this one sucks, maybe the next one will be better.
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haha the q bomb :)

But yes I am 100% open to new knowledge changing the way I view myself the universe and my relationship to it. However if that knowledge is just speculation dressed up as knowledge I will be skeptical of it.


Thanks for responses everyone.
 
burnt said:
But yes I am 100% open to new knowledge changing the way I view myself the universe and my relationship to it. However if that knowledge is just speculation dressed up as knowledge I will be skeptical of it.
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I'm expecting results from several major experiments in my lifetime and theres real potential there for attitude changing results... also I'm under the impression quantum circuits have only just been discovered in nature and in the human body, so who knows what route the brain takes to gain consicousness but I'm expecting some surprises there as well and I've got to be honest, I am somewhat suduced by the transhumanist ideas of immortality and technology upgrades... I mean I have very little problem believing "immortals" are alive today, and the concept of me living for a significantly longer period of time really blows my mind... I mean, then you can really imagine utopia, space travel, alien contact, enlightment through mega-brain power and technology, the future is the thing I'm most excited about, just cant wait for progress to happen and I hope we dont destroy ourselves. If humans could get their act together we could solve the 2 major problems (in my mind), which are the scariety of resources and death.... I think most people would say it'll never happen, but I think it's easy to imagine it being possible with our existing human brain, which is really the kicker.
 
Ha, i just thought of something, burnt you may end up living alot longer than you currently think, as with research going into turning off the ageing process, and as a bonus learning how to make new organs for you with your own DNA. Maybe you want have to face death, though rare, you cold live for thousands of years, that is if all the research goes well.
 
The same way sometimes you enter a psychedelic space that you have never encountered before and yet you ‘just know’ that it’s familiar, you ‘just know’ that somehow, some way you have been there before.
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This ...

A common experience on entheogens is a feeling that everything is exactly the way it’s supposed to be.
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..and this. Don't really suggest anything if consciousness is just the result of the brain doing stuff. Psychedelic drugs effecting your perceptions could explain it all.

I am not convinced that at death the game ends though. I still suspect that there are more games to be played, not necessarily reincarnation, but something. It’s also possible that all games end at the point of physical death but based on my experiences with entheogens I think there are an infinity of games being played in an infinity of alternate realities, and as long as the hide and seek hasn’t ended, meaning as long as I haven’t rediscovered my true self, another game will commence, or another version of it. This reality, being human that is, has its own associated characteristics a large one of which is feelings. What if other realms have something along the same lines but very, very, different. I can’t really pin down what I mean with words but if you have ever been fully enveloped by the psychedelic experience to the point that you completely forget this reality and experience yourself in totally new and unimagined ways that simply don’t exist in this reality, then you know something of what I am talking about. Different ways of being that have different ways of relating and different possibilities of experience.

But I believe that the end is inevitable. Sooner or later, I and you, and every separate being, will remember, or wake up, or find itself. And I can almost imagine our surprise, our shock, when we finally see that it was only one, there was only ever one the whole time.
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I know exactly the experience you are talking about and why you cannot put it into words but you've done a good job explaining this kind of realization. SWIM has had it too and SWIM loves it and has been moved in a way deeper then anything by it.

But those states could only seem to not exist in our normal reality because we never are normally in that state. That state has its disadvantages to be in so it makes sense why we don't melt into an infinite fractal all day long. But that state may still only be a result of the drugs effecting the way our brain influences our perceptions.

My only real disagreement then is how to interpret it. It makes sense on an intuitive level even if you can't describe why. It certainly makes sense when you experience it. But is it the correct interpretation? Also importantly why do psychedelic drugs and other altered states of consciousness give this kind of end realization? Why do so many different cultures come to similar conclusions using different mythology to explain this same kind of experience?

These kind of questions for me are where the discussion gets interesting.

Or can it? If it is truly omnipotent it could find a way around it. It could make itself forget. It could play hide and seek with itself so well that even it would be surprised when it discovered itself. I believe some version of this is what we are experiencing.
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This is possible but it still doesn't explain what the omnipotent being is. When we ask where did the universe come from there are naturalistic explanations. Of course we are also pushing back the original question in many of those explanations just making it further and further and possibly beyond time to a point we can never comphrehend. When we ask these questions and study the universe we find its mostly a bunch of dead matter that most likely somewhere contains life and pprobably life like ours so why make up this omnipotent being even if our explanations are not complete and may never be complete?
 
burnt said:
But those states could only seem to not exist in our normal reality because we never are normally in that state. That state has its disadvantages to be in so it makes sense why we don't melt into an infinite fractal all day long. But that state may still only be a result of the drugs effecting the way our brain influences our perceptions.
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It is most certainly a result of this. But that, as I've argued before, doesn't make it any less real. And so we can draw the line further and start to take a look at what happens in the brain, and say that "Hmmf, this and that happens here and there". Well, interesting information perhaps, but it doesn't necessarily tell me shit. It just tells me the mechanisms behind the experience, but so what?

We can tell the mechanisms behind a whole lot of things, but it is not like we go around believing it is any less real just because we can pinpoint some of the mechanisms and where they occur. Actually, this makes the whole thing even more interesting from my perspective. I can tell you what's going on in your brain when you're in love, but it doesn't exclude the fact that you are in love! I am just explaining the phenomenon through this spesific framework. It's just a perspective...

The point I am making is to just stay open, because these are big questions for us. We are not sure exactly how organized matter creates our subjective experience of reality in the first place, how could it be any easier to explain profound experiences like these? Experiences that radically changes people lives.
 
What about optical illusions and auditory hallucinations of psychotics? There are many hallucinatory experiences which lead the person to believe in something that does not seem real. The brain is playing tricks on them. We don't see the person a person who is psychotic speaks too we don't hear them either. Only inside their head that person is made up. What do these kinds of experiences tell us?

In a way all our perceptions are like that because we don't have a perfect picture of reality ever nor should / could we. But there are some experiences that are so far off from what appears to be reality that it seems like the brain just made it up or your conscious self just interpreted it in a strange way because you can't comphrehend what happened?


I honestly don't know the answer beyond this point no one does. My skeptical nature is more a tool for finding the truth. I've been able to rule out a lot of bullshit that way but yea after this point I am just speculating based on limited available evidence just like you all. I do think its possible via science as well as personal exploration (mostly for inspiration and building upon ideas) to make progress on these issues. I think this is what excites me about all this. I don't think it will be a mystery forever. Some things will be but I don't think consciousness or psychedelic experiences will be.
 
Good points burnt. I, like you, have no good answer. But can we really compare a shizophrenic with a shaman, or with a psychedelic drug user, or with someone dedicated in meditation or other practices that get these kind of experiences? There are some major differences between these two groups of experiences and people.
 
"But can we really compare a shizophrenic with a shaman"

No.:d
ha I understand the similarities..but there are some big differences. I think that there is a lot of benifit and truth to be found in these states..the shaman is aware of this fact and is able to maintain a healthy balance between the 2 modalities, and is able to use it for specific purposes.

The schizophrenic has no controll over the experience, does not understand it for what it is..the line between the 2 modalities is blurred and they are unable to maintain a healthy balance.

I had a very very good freind that eneed up in a hospital for a while when I was 18 becasue he started to loose touch with reality and couldnt find a proper balance between his inner experiences and the concentual world around him...on top of that he stopped going to school and smoked hash oil all day and according to his brother(also my friend) he had decended into some preaty heavy delusions.

My grandmothers mother was also schizophrenic and used to come up with insane scenarios she had imagined and would chase my grandma and her brother around with a knife on more than one occasion..she was in and out of the mental ward all the time..
 
There are major differences between something like paranoid schizophrenia and an ayahuasca trip.

But there are possible relationships between shamanism and schizophrenia. Shamans are often schizotypal type personalities and are sometimes related to schizophrenics. Shamans therefore often probably carrying some of the genes for schizophrenia and related conditions although they never fully manifest it. If they fully manifested the classic schizophrenia we recognize today they would become rather useless to the group or tribe. This may explain why schizophrenia has persisted in human history for so long. Having some of the genes is good for some things like being a creative medicine man but having enough are bad because you turn insane. Anyway this is so far speculative but its testable.

check out this article :


Anyway what about optical illusions? They are most certainly tricks of the mind. Why do we not think that seeing fractals on psychedelics is something similar? There are certainly similarities and differences in the way people perceive optical illusions while on psychedelics and while sober. This has been tested before with that mask illusion I think.

Anyway even though the experiences are qualitatively different does not really take away from the fact that they are all manifestations of the mind. Just like the rest of our subjective experience. So what is then the difference? One is a more accurate interpretation of some aspect of reality then the other. Psychedelics can reveal major detail in some aspects of reality. When you focus on something like a flower for example you may see detail in a much clearer way. But when your sober you might see something like a wooden wall clearer because its not wobbling like while tripping. Therefore some experience can be grossly misinterpreted. Like OBE's and encounters with entities.
 
How is anything that happens on hallucinogens not testable by science? People already are testing it. We will probably be able to explain it in more and more detail soon. But of course none of that will satisfy people with your view point. It doesn't matter how much evidence there is that shows we are just conscious beings who are only conscious because we have a brain that makes us conscious you will still deny it. You want to be more then that and that's why you will always deny it no matter how much real objective evidence is presented to you.

Again no one has ever explained whats so mystical about the mystical experience? I think its completely natural and logical that something like these experiences would happen if our consciousness was the result of whats going on in our brain. It makes sense that drugs could then drastically alter our perceptions to the point that we don't even have an ego anymore. The only real truth in this is that your brain is controlling your conscious experience.

Sure you can discover deep truths while high or while sober. This has happened many times throughout history and in probably all our own lives. Just because things "feel" right does not by any means mean they are correct.
 
burnt said:
^^Cool man its all good. I am going to take break from these discussions for a little while though. As always its been fun. Perhaps burnt will have some crazy dreams that SWIM is smoking crazy drugs and will come up with new ideas.
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Dude you are one of the guys that put structure in these talks.
Pls keep doing so because it helps allot.
 
^^ Thanks guys. Only reason I need to take break sometimes is I have a real life too ;) !

As I said, the only reason I don't still view things like you do is because it just no-longer jibes with some experiences I have had. But those experiences are non-transmissable (not that I don't keep trying to transmit what I view as the lessons of the experience Smile ) so I totally get where you (or anyone else) wouldn't want to buy into them without having had the experiences themselves.
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I have also had experiences that I can't explain. I don't bother trying to describe them because many of you all do it much better then I could. I am trying however to build a neuroscientific explanation for them. But its not easy. My study of the brain is only beginning. I need to understand it in real life because substances I do work on (in real world) effect the brain and might treat diseases of the mind. this is crossing over with my hobby of psych's.

Part of the reason I have these debates is to hear all sides of the argument. This allows me to compile the explanations that are so far not explainable by modern neuroscience. Although modern neuroscience lacks a complete understanding of consciousness I do not view this as a huge problem. I am making one assumption though in my arguments simply because I couldn't form a debate without making this assumption. That consciousness is made by the brain. If there is some aspect of consciousness one day that cannot be explained by this hypothesis I will be willing to accept it. So far that has not happened yet. Psychedelics are on the edge. Perhaps there is more to it. Perhaps not. I only seek the truth because I find pleasure in learning.
 
burnt said:
I only seek the truth because I find pleasure in learning.
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Aye, well said.

Learning is one of if not the greatest pleasures of existence. Every moment of every day we are learning something, it is the impetus of our lives. Whether it's in our thoughts alone, our communication with others, or even the dreams we can and cannot remember when we sleep. Every moment of life is a learning experience.

Stop. Take the opportunity to simply enjoy a moment...

Bet you learned something too. 😉
 
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