considering next dosage after a tough first experience

[oneistheall]

hi

my first experience was with 220 white caapi extract + 80mgs dmt fb.It was too intense and i freaked out with my mental confusion: I kept asking my wife what was going on, i completely forgot I had taken the stuff and could not belive I had taken something to be in that anxious state...asked for an ambulance but a friend came over instead and that helped a lot.Ok since then(3months ago) I have used mescaline once (which I used to have every weekend) I think the "bad" experience made me see the use of psychedelics in an other way.
Back in 2005 I had Aya with a Shaman in the Sacred Valley near Cuzco, it was a great mellow and positive experience and it included mild visuals, the dna type...
From my (personal) point of view I believe that most of the info in the internet regarding Pharma is more oriented to oral DMT ingestion than to emulate an Aya experience.I am looking forward for a next experience this weekend with a friend+a sitter by Nature, thats by far a better set and setting.
As for dosing I understand that in an Aya brew different proportions are used, a higher Caapi content and a lower DMT content.I recall a table with the analysis of several brews and harmaloids ranged from 300 to 400mgs and dmt from 15-50.I wish I could find that table in the iternet again cause im not sure about the dmt.
I am not having more than 60mgs of dmt for sure but I am considering in increasing Caapi, maybe 280-300.The question to the more experienced ones is regarding Caapi because I want to be sure that it was not Caapi that made me have a tough ride.I did not purge or anything with 220.Is Caapi in a dose up to 300-350 potentially capable of psychological discomfort? Is there documented sensibility to Caapi? thank you.

 

[ouro]

sounds rough, oneis. I think we have similar sensitivities... I have had pretty unpleasant experiences eating ~5g mimosa or around 100mg fb. However, I always felt very refreshed and energized and positive afterwards. How did you feel after that strong dose wore off? I have never drank aya prepared by a shaman but I have been very curious how they balance their brews. I imagine they may cater the brew for the occasion, but that is entirely speculation.

As far as the potency of caapi, it really depends. IMO the best way to go about it is to simply go by experience; if you brew enough of the same vine using similar brewing technique you will learn how much of that brew is needed to get the desired effects. Different sources of vine and different brewing result in a wildly different potency in drink. I prefer brews very strong on caapi (equiv to 300mgs harmalas) and lighter on spice (30-80mgs). After my experiences it's hard to believe people eat 150-200 mgs spice.

I dont believe drinking too much caapi can cause that kind of anxiety; the common negative side effect of too much harmalas is a sort of nausea/vertigo sensation. ime extreme confusion is a side effect of too much dmt. I think there is a report of harmala od by shadowman-x somewhere around here.

300 g caapi seems like too much to me. It may be weak vine, or you might be brewing it ineffectively, or you might be insensitive. What are you striving for in this experience?

also, regarding the purge, harmalas alone have never made me purge. Even at 300mgs or so they usually act a bit like a laxative but nothing ever tried to come back up. If I add even a little spice in I am very likely to empty my stomach. My most unpleasant rides were high on spice and I could not purge despite the desire to. I can't explain why, I think I was dehydrated or maybe when I was less experienced I just didn't know how to let the purge happen or my body was "closed."

ps: bonus music cause im listening to it right now and i like it

 

[jdubs]

I think upping the harmalas and lowering the DiMiTri is the key... I have no experience with pharmahuasca, yet am mildly experienced with ayahuasca. A little DMT goes a long way, with a high dose of caapi. The one truly terrifying experience I had with was with a rue/mimosa brew. Made the mistake of drinking a couple of extra grams of mimosa (bringing it up to around 5) when I didnt think it was working, and it was nightmarish without a solid harmala grounding.

The best experience I have had so far was 120g of white vine, and around 6g of mimosa - it was intense but manageable, and not painful like it was with too little rue.

Also, maybe try the harmalas in a fairly strong dose on their own a few times, if you havent already - it will show you the powerful grounder she really can be (which is good to remember if you ever get gripped by panic again).

 

[oneistheall]

How did you feel after that strong dose wore off?

I felt very relaxed and full of spiritual insight.I think that what troubled me more was the first impact which brought general confusion, afgter I relaxed and felt safe I closed my eyes and could enjoy some amazing other world visions, like fractal structures.I think thats why the Smaman sings and keeps repeating Ayahuasca,Ayayuasca,Aya... he wants you to be relaxed and aware of whats going on.

I dont believe drinking too much caapi can cause that kind of anxiety; the common negative side effect of too much harmalas is a sort of nausea/vertigo sensation. ime extreme confusion is a side effect of too much dmt.

okay, I wanted to be sure.

300 g caapi seems like too much to me.

sorry Ouro I ment 300mg of extracted Caapi, ala gibran.

ps: bonus music cause im listening to it right now and i like it

here is one for you

I think upping the harmalas and lowering the DiMiTri is the key... I have no experience with pharmahuasca, yet am mildly experienced with ayahuasca. A little DMT goes a long way, with a high dose of caapi. The one truly terrifying experience I had with was with a rue/mimosa brew. Made the mistake of drinking a couple of extra grams of mimosa (bringing it up to around 5) when I didnt think it was working, and it was nightmarish without a solid harmala grounding.

thx jdubs, the word "grounding" sounds confortable.

 

[evil804]

I think that what troubled me more was the first impact which brought general confusion, afgter I relaxed and felt safe I closed my eyes and could enjoy some amazing other world visions, like fractal structures.I think thats why the Smaman sings and keeps repeating Ayahuasca,Ayayuasca,Aya... he wants you to be relaxed and aware of whats going on.

This is pretty much how every single journey begins for me. I always equated it to having to peer into the abyss before ascending into the heavens. This is when i learn where i have been cruel, judgemental, unforgiving, etc... and then the forgiveness and acceptance begins allowing me to enjoy the experience. I always thought this was normal, and to be expected. I think i get more out of this unpleasant phase than they bliss that follows. I consider it the price of admission to the heavens. 8)

 

[chocobeastie]

I know some of you think I am going to be supersticious here, but the caapi extract is never going to be as good or as supportive as a staight vine tea. The Ayahuasca IS a plant spirit which helps you to guide the journey.... when extracted, you are more "on your own". the extracts are never as good and the "spirit" just isn't as present.

It is the same when you extract harmalas from Syrian Rue seeds. A straight tea from five grams or so of seeds from a *good* batch of Rue is going to far superior to an extract.

I was doing a lot of pharma of every possible sort, ten years ago, so I do know what I am talking about.

Some people need A LOT of DMT, (or think they need a lot). I saw a young man recently, take 300mg of harmalas and then half a gram of DMT. Then two nights later he took a whole gram!

Needless to say, it looked pretty messy for him. I've done close to a gram and I can say, it is too much. You will not really get anything out of that you will not get out of 300mg. In the west, people are so often ambitious, always pushing, striving.... for strength, intensity, ultimate states.

AND, these experiences can be terrorfying, horrorfying... that is just the nature of the beast - it seems. Perhaps it is part of the part to the admission of the heavens. But also, I have heard of people who drink ayahuasca every week and go to hell and just keep doing it until they no longer have that experience.

This is serious stuff, and for first timers, they might not be fully aware of what they are getting into. On the ayauasca.com forums, they recommend just doing a caapi only brew first off and that could be good advice for many, when you are doing it by yourself first.

 

[SHroomtroll]

Damn 1gram of dimitri? 5grams of good mimosa fucked me up hard, can´t imagine what 10times that dose would do to my soul.

 

[chocobeastie]

I know another who did 1 gram of DMT orally. He was a total hardhead though. It completely changed his life in a very positive way.

Sometimes these really high DMT dosages can really bring some positive changes... what is happening is such a higher degree of connectiveness, that often a kind of exorcism occurs with the individual.

Of course, I am not recommending such high dosages to everyone. Some people are very sensitive. But keep in mind, if you are able to talk, move around and operate in anything like your ordinary state, you are in still in the realm of the ego. The really transpersonal states occur when you are not at all referenced to your ego.

In the Amazon, if someone is having a hard time, the shaman will often give them another cup of ayahuasca, because then you are just beyond the realm of ego and that is in the awareness that a lot of the problems reside in the individual trying to hang onto the ego and its issues.

 

[Global]

I think that what troubled me more was the first impact which brought general confusion, afgter I relaxed and felt safe I closed my eyes and could enjoy some amazing other world visions, like fractal structures.I think thats why the Smaman sings and keeps repeating Ayahuasca,Ayayuasca,Aya... he wants you to be relaxed and aware of whats going on.

This is pretty much how every single journey begins for me. I always equated it to having to peer into the abyss before ascending into the heavens. This is when i learn where i have been cruel, judgemental, unforgiving, etc... and then the forgiveness and acceptance begins allowing me to enjoy the experience. I always thought this was normal, and to be expected. I think i get more out of this unpleasant phase than they bliss that follows. I consider it the price of admission to the heavens. 8)

I've also learned myself that if an experience starts out negative, uncomfortable or extremely intense that all I have to do is wait a little bit for it to loose some steam and then that's where the magic happens. I've never really had an experience end on a very sour note. If you sit and calmly wait for the storm to pass and for the negativity to resolve itself, things can become awfully heavenly and positive and euphoric at the blink of an eye.

 

[chocobeastie]

A lot of the time, these materials are bringing up toxins, whether they be emotional or mental and then amplifying them, so you can see them and work through them. That is literally what Ayahuasca is about, purging negative material and you have same sort of experiences with pharma as well.