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dissociatives comparision thread

Migrated topic.
SHroomtroll

SHroomtroll

Rising Star
I´m making this thread to compare some of the more accepted dissociatives as salvia and ibogain, and the syntethics as ketamin,dxm mxe and pcp.

I find it very strange that the naturals seem to be anti addictive whereas most if not all of the man made ones are one of the most addictive drugs there are.

Therefor i would not recomend anyone with any kind of addiction problems to take any syntethic dissio drug just like i would never recomendend most normal psychs to people with a fragile mind.

My personal experience with these kind of drugs are limited to mxe, ketamin and salvia with most work done with mxe combined with changa and the other ones i only tried once each time.

I feel that i´m preety done with mxe since it´s productive qualiteis is starting to diminish whereas it´s addictive parts is starting to show.

I´m still glad i tried it and worked with it since it helped me kick my nicotine habit together with other valuable lessons.


If anyone has some good general info about these substances or better yet good comparable experiences i would really like to hear.
 
Do salvia and ibogaine really count as dissocatives? I didn't get dissociated on salvia like I got dissociated on DXM. What dose of salvia and what dose of ibogaine does a person need to take to be dissociated to the extent of something like MXE.
 
They are very different drugs but still on the same scale.

High doses of mxe on a tolerance gives me alot of salvia vibes,
 
well, from my experience salvia is a strong dissociative. along with ketamine ( you're right to me about addictive vs ant-addictive properties of synthetic vs natural) but I only have work with low dose iboga rb and once with dxm ( which I found inferior to ketamine ) so too small doses and little experience to find its dissociative properties.
 
Ibogaine is an interresting and unique substance in the sense that it has three different dissociative effects wich are NMDA, GABA and opioid based and on top of that it has a classic hallucinogenic effects as well.

The point is that ibogaine combines all these mechanisms into one single molecule wich is probably responsable for the fact that iboga's effects aren't simply the sum of all these different effects. By simply combining a dissociative with hallucinogens, you won't get iboga's effects.

The effects of iboga are the result of a very elaborate sort of harmony between all these receptor activity's. The dissociative effects of iboga are affected by it's psychedelic effects in such a way that they become more psychedelic themselves.
Yet you can very clearly notice it's dissociative sedating effects.

In lower doses these effects are even more dominant than it's psychedelic effects. The larger the amounts taken, the more the psychedelic effects start to kick in and the more the dissociative effects gain a psychedelic dimension.

Salvia is dissociative in another way than ketamine is. ketamine is an NMDA-antagonist while salvia is an opioïd agonist. DXM is both of them. Fly-agaric is a GABA-agonistic dissociative.

What makes a dissociative a dissociative is that it by some neurochemical mechanism causes a temporary numbness of the mind that invokes an inward reflective state of mind. It sedates the wakefull mind to allow a dreamfull state to arise. In this sense, dissociatives are opposites of classic hallucinogens that are more mind-opening. Dissociatives cause the mind closes in on itself, no longer opened to the world around it but looking inward.

This is the reason i tend to see cannabis as a dissociative drug because it's activity is ultimately based on sedation.
 
I think I know why I didn't perceive dissociation on salvia, the reason I didn't perceive dissociation is because I think NMDA antagonist dissociation is much stronger than opioid or GABA dissociation.

Also aren't all NMDA antagonists harmful, don't they cause brain damage as everyone says?
 
Seraph said:
I think I know why I didn't perceive dissociation on salvia, the reason I didn't perceive dissociation is because I think NMDA antagonist dissociation is much stronger than opioid or GABA dissociation.

Also aren't all NMDA antagonists harmful, don't they cause brain damage as everyone says?
Click to expand...
For many NMDA-dissociatives like ketamine and PCP this is indeed proven. I don't know if this is true for all of them though, but it's definately wise to be at least very moderate with substances like MXE, or maybe even to stay away from them.
 
very informative polytrip. we forgot to mention the great amanita muscaria and pantherina to this thread.
 
Yes amanaita is a very common mushroom in my country, didnt know it was classed a dissio...

Also what kind of use/abuse is needed to cause permanent brain damage from ket/dxm? ive done about 1g total of mxe and have started to feel abit retarded a few days after my sesions.

This is a big reason why i will stop using it for a few months minimum, this and also the magic is getting weaker every time.
 
Should all NMDA-antagonist users who like dissociation switch to using amanitas to avoid brain damage? Does GABA-based dissociation feel like NMDA-based dissociation because I know opioid-based dissociation feels NOTHING like NMDA-based dissociation.
 
Every kind of dissociation is different. For DXM and MXE the long term health effects and possibility of brain damage are just unknowns. But i don't know the health effects of fly-agaric either to be frankly. The safest dissociative drug is probably cannabis.

People who've taken large amounts say that in these large amounts, fly agaric is capable of causing extremely visionary experiences. I've only had amounts where it caused visual distortions and something like a floating sensation.

GABA-agonism can lead to a wide range of effects. Alcohol, GHB, valium, L-teanine and many sleeping pills are GABA agonists and they all have different effects, some of them are extremely different like L-teanine wich causes a wakefull sort of relaxation and alcohol wich doesn't cause any wakefullness at all. But many of them cause a sort of drunkennes. You could see the effects of fly-agaric as a dissociative kind of drunkennes. A kind of drunkennes that works in such a way that the mind becomes entranced and dreamy and starts drifting in a psychedelic sort of way.

It shares some features with NMDA-antagonists like a feeling of warmth and a floating sensation but it's different still.
 
polytrip said:
Seraph said:
I think I know why I didn't perceive dissociation on salvia, the reason I didn't perceive dissociation is because I think NMDA antagonist dissociation is much stronger than opioid or GABA dissociation.

Also aren't all NMDA antagonists harmful, don't they cause brain damage as everyone says?
Click to expand...
For many NMDA-dissociatives like ketamine and PCP this is indeed proven. I don't know if this is true for all of them though, but it's definately wise to be at least very moderate with substances like MXE, or maybe even to stay away from them.
Click to expand...

Well I dunno about that polytrip. I think it might depend on how they are used. In some places ketamine is admistered in cases of severe head trauma to actually protect the brain from any damage. Ketamine is a neuro-protectant. I am not sure what the reality is surrounding brain lesions in reguards to ketamine, but everything I have read that pointed to that was only in the case of heavy repeated use. I have yet to ever here of these things happening with very occasional use..and ketamine is still used even here in the west as a neuroprotectant for certain conditions. I have never taken ketamine or any dissociative that acts on the NMDA sites so I cant comment on subjective experience.
 
I do enjoy dissociatives, and from my experience salvia divinorum is very dissociative, in its own strange way, the thought processes, and the whole experience in general is very deja vu, comparable with other dissociatives.

Each are very different and have their own personalities, but they ALL, deep down, have the same "roots", High doses of any dissociative pretty much brings me to generally the same place "the roots" maybe slightly different depending on what dissociative.


This combo is ridiculous, as some of you may know. I have come to the understanding that it was because of the DMT I had trouble controlling myself. Normally when I smoke DMT, one good hit, once I come back, more DMT is the LAST thing on my mind, and I often wont smoke for at least a week or more.

Dissociatives on their own can get quite boring, and uninteresting, but it was because of the inhibiting nature of the dissociatives, I lose all fear, and im not afraid keep smoalking. This state gave me megalomaniac delusions, of power and fearlessness, I was the god, I could smoalk and smoalk and smoalk, die and die and die, over and over and over again, the intensity beyond imaginable, I was a god.

I combined DMT with every dissociative I had in my possesion, MXE, ketamine and DXM :oops:.

These nights resulted in death/birth multiple, multiple times. One of the most unique and intense experiences out there, each night on dissociatves I went through over 1g of changa sometimes nearing 2 grams.

I realized what direction I was going, and how delusional I had been, it really just wasn't necessary to keep doing it, over and over


I still do enjoy the dissociatve experience, But I try to keep things from falling out of my control, salvia divinorum is helpful in this case
 
Obviously all my opinion. The Salvia and Ketamine ones are based on just a few experiences.

Salvia: Very odd and relatively neutral in character. I would say that I was split apart and ripped from my body. While the experience wasn't euphoric or dysphoric I believe that the often negative perception is due to the scariness or oddness of the trip not being offset by good vibes. Slight mental cloud. I can't remember much of my Salvia experiences. Also it gives me this god-awful tingly feeling.

Ketamine: Great mental cloud and overwhelming nausea when moving for me. This lasts hours past the dosing making this drug a once in a blue moon for me. The separation from the body feels physical, I sense my toes as being very far away from my head, my body parts are jumbled around and senses from the ears and the eyes sometimes are distanced. Closed eye visuals for me usually involve me watching myself exist and breath. Hallucinations can be very lifelike. Similar to alcohol in nausea and blurry vision. Sense of balance or direction of gravity is greatly changed. While it doesn't sting much when snorted the drip kinda sucks especially since you pretty much have to lie down. As a dissociative anesthetic you many parts of the body are numbed. Mildly pleasant feeling but not approaching any traditional psychedelic in euphoria. Has a hangover where I feel cloudy.

Nitrous: My favorite dissociative. Intensely euphoric. Auditory hallucinations of wooooshing sounds. My body tingles with euphoria and then I fall (literally, you can't really move) into darkness where my ego is ripped apart. As I come back I frequently gain greater appreciation of life in general and all aspects of my life. If done too much headaches and nausea can arise. Mildly fiendish in the moment but not hard to stay away from afterward. A surprisingly good teacher. Combines great with all other sorts of drugs. Cannabis and Nitrous is fantastic. It supremely short duration is a curse and a blessing. You want it to last for longer but are good to drive 10 minutes after dosing.
 
This thread really got a great start, i think it´s valuable to have a combined thread about these drugs since they have some effects that people really need to know about before getting into.

I agree with the changa part where mxe helped me come over the pre flight anxiety enabling me to take big hits without any bad feelings.

Also going into dmt land while in a dissio headspace really creates a unique trip that is preety different from the normal dmt land.

Although i don´t like anything that makes dmt become addictive and that is also a good reason for me to not go in to mxechanga land for a good while.

I really need to go back to aya for awhile and integrate what these months of mxexing has done to me good and bad.
 
polytrip said:
Seraph said:
I think I know why I didn't perceive dissociation on salvia, the reason I didn't perceive dissociation is because I think NMDA antagonist dissociation is much stronger than opioid or GABA dissociation.

Also aren't all NMDA antagonists harmful, don't they cause brain damage as everyone says?
Click to expand...
For many NMDA-dissociatives like ketamine and PCP this is indeed proven. I don't know if this is true for all of them though, but it's definately wise to be at least very moderate with substances like MXE, or maybe even to stay away from them.
Click to expand...

polytrip do you have a source for this?
 
Once while being on 300mg of DXM I've smoked one puff of 5x extract of salvia divinorum. I was sitting in front of a screen watching "How to Operate Your Brain" by Timothy Leary... It felt like being on the extreme and absolute edge of reality. It was like getting to the core, behind the scenes of Universe. The message in the movie struck me very hard, like getting the most important information about the reality ever. It was like being Neo in the Matrix. It was like being freed from my eternal enslavement. It was like waking up.

Very, very intense experience.
 
Yeah but Ketamine and salvia is intense also, but I had the clear message for entheogens each time :
DOn't do this again !!
Now I start to think for a serious work with entheogen, it is time to stop using things that messes you up such as ket.
You do'nt feel whole one bit most of the time.
 
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