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DMT Tek - D-limonene pulls confusion

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Scythian

Scythian

Rising Star
Greetings,
I'd like to ask you for help, in the tek
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Q21Q21's_Vinegar/Lime_A/B_Extraction_Tek#Tek_1:_The_Jimjam_party
(the jimjam party version), during the non-polar wash phase, how long does the D-limonene have to be in contact with the bark in order to absorb the DMT from it?

¨The first pull if done immediately after getting the lime-bark to one of the consistencies should yield anywhere from 10%-35% (in my experience.) If the first pull is done after 6-8 hours however it will likely yield 25%-60%.
2 pulls done around 24 hours and 48 hours (or later) should be enough to get 80%-90% of the DMT (In my experience).
Pulls after that tend to be rather small but I highly recommends doing pulls at 1 week and another at 2 or 3 weeks to get all the DMT possible.¨

During these hours:
a) the non-polar solvent (d-limonene) has to be in the container with the bark all these hours and after 6 hours, then after 24 hours I pour the d-limonene saturated with DMT to another container? Or
b) the purpose of waiting is that the lime is basifying the bark and then the ¨pulls¨ reffer to the act of pouring limonene on the bark, stirring for 10-20 minutes every time, then pouring the d-limonene saturated with DMT to another container?

Basically I'm worried I've misunderstood it and I need to know how long the limonene has to be in contact with the bark to absorb the DMT, thank you very much for your help. :)
 
Most of the DMT should move almost immediately once the limonene is mixed in with the bark+base and the layers separate.. Leaving it for longer is "playing it safe", to make sure you give more time for DMT to migrate to the non-polar (limonene).

So you can leave it for long, or do it quicker, whatever suits your needs. That being said, I recommend the last pull you do it separately than the rest, meaning, once you pull it off, you don't mix with the rest of the limonene before salting, but rather you make a long pull (24+ hours sitting, with occasionally mixing it again and again) and salt it separately, and don't throw your bark+base mix away just yet.

That way, if your last pull you salt separately and you have a large comparative yield (20% or more of total yield), you should try doing yet another pull to see if there are more alkaloids in there. If the last pull has just small amount (less than 10% total yield), then you know you probably have exhausted the bark and you can throw the rest away
 
From reading on the subject I was under the impression that d-limonene pulls (and “jimjam” in general) resulted in a significantly inferior product due to impurities, or am I wrong to believe this?
 
Depends a bit how you salt but yeah in general id say that affirmation is incorrect and that limonene-extracted products are equivalent to those extracted with naphtha.

If you do FASI/FASA salting of limo, when freebasing the fumarates your final product will generally be same as naphtha extractions, 90+ % purity

If you do acqueous salting of your limo (with vinegar/FASW) and then freebase, your final product will also be of similar high purity but with a tiny percentage more of some other compounds (1mthbc, 1,2mthbc) which I hypothesize would still be imperceptible in a double blind test.

This thread has some more extended info on mimosa extract analysis
 
Thank you for that endlessness.

I was very interested in q21q21’s d-limonene tek because a) all ingredients are food safe, b) doesn’t require freezer precipitation and c) unlike with naphtha you don’t have to handle a solvent that produces flammable fumes.

Are recommendations of naphtha pulls over d-limonene purely about an unwarranted prejudice for crystals over goo (as per ..Enough GOO questions! read this.. - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus) or am I missing something/getting something wrong?
 
The goo thing is an issue mostly with Acacia confusa, not as much with Mimosa hostilis extractions. It may happen if you salt out with vinegar, personally I much rather work with FASI instead, its easy, beautiful to see the crystallization, and you get nice crystals to store as salt or can convert to freebase for smoking if you want. Check BLAB tek for more info, you can follow q21 tek till you make the pulls and then follow BLAB tek for salting and converting to freebase.

with FASI you can get nice dmt freebase crystals after freebasing it, just as beautiful and clean as naphtha crystala. When converting acetates from vinegar salting though, I have once gotten crystals/wax but more often I got a more gooey result. When you analyse the goo though it is pretty much all dmt with small amounts of impurities so its good to use, just harder to manage, maybe you can dissolve in some herbs to make for easier smoking. So in those cases I do think the goo prejudice is a part of the reason why some people dont like limonene.

Lastly i gotta say I dont trust one particular option in q21 tek to convert acetates to freebase by simply heating. Some people have tried that and have felt negative health effects like extra coughing and lung pain. Id rather convert using a base and then pulling withethanol ipa or acetone.. Or you coukd try amorfati's method that does the invert, uses water to remove excess base and leave dmt behind, check the nexus wiki amor fati's tek for more info, on the phone now but if you cant find it I'll link you later.

Be well
 
I like to extract MHRB with naphtha and freeze-precipitation, and once it stops yielding, do a couple of limonene pulls for a broader spectrum.

Naphtha seems very clean to me, it evaporates cleanly, doesn't cause emulsions, the product is clean and the solvent easily reused. That way I can pull the bulk of the n,n-DMT. The product is good for vaping, but orally I don't like it so much.

The limonene pulls, salted out with vinegar, are not suitable for vaping, but much more interesting orally. The problem with that, however, is the limonene traces / degradation products that make it into the solution. However, evaporating it completely gets rid of them for the most part.

I don't have experience salting out MHRB limonene pulls with FASA/FASI, but might give it a try sometime. I expect them to be more full-spectrum, like the vinegar saltings.
 
Jagube said:
The limonene pulls, salted out with vinegar, are not suitable for vaping, but much more interesting orally. The problem with that, however, is the limonene traces / degradation products that make it into the solution. However, evaporating it completely gets rid of them for the most part.

I don't have experience salting out MHRB limonene pulls with FASA/FASI, but might give it a try sometime. I expect them to be more full-spectrum, like the vinegar saltings.
Click to expand...

You can def vap the salted vinegar pulls if you freebase the vinegar afterwards (with sodium carb and alcohol pull for example), but I imagine you are aware of that.

As for the content of FASA/FASI vs vinegar salting, they have minor alkaloid differences as linked earlier . It´s more accurate to equate FASA/FASI results to naphtha pulls, versus the acqueous saltings like vinegar or FASW which have a few more small amount/trace alkaloids. I still suspect a person can´t differentiate them in blind tests. I couldnt notice a difference after many experiences, but they werent blind tests. The only blind test I know of was Ice House, who also could not tell a difference, but Id love to see more tests to confirm or not these results.
 
endlessness said:
You can def vap the salted vinegar pulls if you freebase the vinegar afterwards (with sodium carb and alcohol pull for example), but I imagine you are aware of that.
Click to expand...
Can I base evaporated vinegar pulls with an ammonia solution instead and evaporate it to yield a clean freebase product? If it works, it would avoid the extra step of a sequence of alcohol pulls.

endlessness said:
As for the content of FASA/FASI vs vinegar salting, they have minor alkaloid differences as linked earlier . It´s more accurate to equate FASA/FASI results to naphtha pulls, versus the acqueous saltings like vinegar or FASW which have a few more small amount/trace alkaloids.
Click to expand...
Do you know if there is a difference in the n,n-DMT vs DMT n-oxide profiles between FASA/FASI and vinegar? This may not matter so much in the case of MHRB, but may matter much more in the case of plants with a greater n-oxide contribution.

Personally, even with MHRB, I find vinegar saltings of limonene pulls quite different from naphtha-pulled freeze-precipitated DMT orally.

On a different note, I've recently pulled Phalaris with limonene / sunflower oil, salted it out with vinegar, evaporated and obtained a goo that was yucky (very bitter with a unique bite), but not particularly active. This may have been some inactive alkaloids, or not even alkaloids.
 
endlessness said:
Most of the DMT should move almost immediately once the limonene is mixed in with the bark+base and the layers separate.. Leaving it for longer is "playing it safe", to make sure you give more time for DMT to migrate to the non-polar (limonene).

So you can leave it for long, or do it quicker, whatever suits your needs. That being said, I recommend the last pull you do it separately than the rest, meaning, once you pull it off, you don't mix with the rest of the limonene before salting, but rather you make a long pull (24+ hours sitting, with occasionally mixing it again and again) and salt it separately, and don't throw your bark+base mix away just yet.

That way, if your last pull you salt separately and you have a large comparative yield (20% or more of total yield), you should try doing yet another pull to see if there are more alkaloids in there. If the last pull has just small amount (less than 10% total yield), then you know you probably have exhausted the bark and you can throw the rest away
Click to expand...

Thank you for answering, I'm sorry if I ask something that might be obvious but I'm uncertain about many variables as it's my first extraction. I've done the:
1) acidification of 250g of MHRB powder, adding 250ml of 5% vinegar + 250ml near-boiling water
2) the basification with 190g of lime + some tap water (wet consistency option)
then I kept the lime-bark in the fridge for 24 hours, and the next I'm going to do is
3) Non-polar wash, the first pull - I'll pour 500ml of D-limonene into the lime-bark, mix well then stir periodically for 20 mintutes, then
4) pour the solvent to a shakeable container through a funnel, filtering the bark particles with a cotton ball
5) salting - add some vinegar to the dmt-limonene, shake it for 5 minutes, separated the DMT-vinegar (bottom layer) with a turkey buster, add some water, shake again, separate the water, then
6) in couple hours repeat the non-polar wash + salting at least 2 more times, reusing the limonene, each time doubling the amount of time D-Limonene is in contact with the bark, and then I'll do a long pull (limonene pulling the DMT from the bark for 24 hours)
7) evaporation - I'll combine all the dmt-vinegars, boil it down to a smaller quantity and evaporate the vinegar until there is only jimjam dmt left, slowly and stopping if there is any smoke (this step makes me worried because I don't know how it will affect all the alkaloids present in the jimjam DMT or if there will be a general loss)

I wonder if there are other methods of turning DMT-acetate into freebase apart from evaporation or fumaric acid (for example using lime again) So far I'm planning to do the evaporation of the vinegar instead of using fumaric acid because I want to preserve the full spectrum DMT extract and then turn it into DMT-phosphate or citrate (addint coke or orange juice) as I'm planning to use the jimjam DMT orally combined with a maoi extract mix (50% tetrahydroharmine + 25% harmine + 25% harmaline) and I think that the full spectrum extract combined with the maoi that includes THH resembles the most an Ayahuasca brew used for healing, which is why I'd like to take it, and supposedly the various harmalas synergise each other and the alkaloids of mimosa hostilis as well.

Do you think it'd work this way or I made a mistake during the process of extraction? I hope I won't waste it. Your knowledge has been very helpful, thanks again.:thumb_up:
 
What you mentioned should work but I have a few comments:

If step 1+2 leave you with a very wet consistency, it might not be easy to just pour off the limonene in step 4, since the basified layer might be poured together. This will be easier with either a less diluted and more paste-like consistency of the basified mimosa mix, or by having the whole thing in a thinner/taller container where you can use a (glass) pipette or similar to suck the top non-polar layer off into the new container where you next will do the salting.

The limonene amount, 500ml, seems very high. It wont be necessarily a problem but you are using a lot of it, if you dont have too much limonene you can use half of that. You can also cycle the limonene, after you salt from it you can put it back into the basified container to repeat pulls with the re-used limonene.

As for the salting, don´t shake, stir also, helps prevent emulsions. Also, do 2-3 acidified pulls on the limonene when salting, not just one.

I´d do at least 4 total pulls on the basified bark and I´d salt the last one separately as mentioned in my previous post, to judge if there are still alkaloids in there.

To evaporate the vinegar, I suggest not boiling down, or at least boiling down on low fire only while there is a lot of vinegar left, when you start reducing the quantity significantly, then I´d transfer it either to a warm water bath or an open oven with low fire or anything that keeps the whole thing at less than 100celcius , to prevent the alkaloids from burning once the whole thing finishes evaporating.

Yeah you can definitely turn from acetate to freebase, check out the BLAB tek , there is an acetate conversion option, you´ll need IPA, ethanol or acetone. Alternatively you can try something like Amorfati´s conversion (even though its for fumarate in his example, it should work the same), but I never done that particular conversion from amor fati so I can´t say from experience, just that in theory it should work. If you are doing Amor Fati´s conversion then you should use sodium carbonate and not calcium hydroxide because you want your base to be well soluble in water for it to be cleaned away. If you are using the BLAB conversions using ethanol/ipa/acetone, then calcium hydroxide will work fine.

In my experience converting the acetate to freebase will generally result in a more gooey substance, not so solid, but its still perfectly smokable, if you get around the issue of managing a goo, weighing it, putting in the pipe or storage container without having it stick everywhere and losing some, etc.

If you want to later consume it orally, you don´t have to first convert to freebase, you can consume the acetate as-is, in the correct amount.

Taking this together with mixed harmalas sounds good, just be sure to get the dosage right. I suggest first having a couple of tries with just the harmalas to find a dosage where you feel *something, like light headedness, a bit of light sensitivity, maybe small amount of tracers of moving objects in your vision, but not so much that you´re dizzy, extremely nauseated, have tons of tracers, light almost hurts, etc.. So find that right dosage and then add dmt on top next try.

Hope that helps!

Be well



Scythian said:
Thank you for answering, I'm sorry if I ask something that might be obvious but I'm uncertain about many variables as it's my first extraction. I've done the:
1) acidification of 250g of MHRB powder, adding 250ml of 5% vinegar + 250ml near-boiling water
2) the basification with 190g of lime + some tap water (wet consistency option)
then I kept the lime-bark in the fridge for 24 hours, and the next I'm going to do is
3) Non-polar wash, the first pull - I'll pour 500ml of D-limonene into the lime-bark, mix well then stir periodically for 20 mintutes, then
4) pour the solvent to a shakeable container through a funnel, filtering the bark particles with a cotton ball
5) salting - add some vinegar to the dmt-limonene, shake it for 5 minutes, separated the DMT-vinegar (bottom layer) with a turkey buster, add some water, shake again, separate the water, then
6) in couple hours repeat the non-polar wash + salting at least 2 more times, reusing the limonene, each time doubling the amount of time D-Limonene is in contact with the bark, and then I'll do a long pull (limonene pulling the DMT from the bark for 24 hours)
7) evaporation - I'll combine all the dmt-vinegars, boil it down to a smaller quantity and evaporate the vinegar until there is only jimjam dmt left, slowly and stopping if there is any smoke (this step makes me worried because I don't know how it will affect all the alkaloids present in the jimjam DMT or if there will be a general loss)

I wonder if there are other methods of turning DMT-acetate into freebase apart from evaporation or fumaric acid (for example using lime again) So far I'm planning to do the evaporation of the vinegar instead of using fumaric acid because I want to preserve the full spectrum DMT extract and then turn it into DMT-phosphate or citrate (addint coke or orange juice) as I'm planning to use the jimjam DMT orally combined with a maoi extract mix (50% tetrahydroharmine + 25% harmine + 25% harmaline) and I think that the full spectrum extract combined with the maoi that includes THH resembles the most an Ayahuasca brew used for healing, which is why I'd like to take it, and supposedly the various harmalas synergise each other and the alkaloids of mimosa hostilis as well.

Do you think it'd work this way or I made a mistake during the process of extraction? I hope I won't waste it. Your knowledge has been very helpful, thanks again.:thumb_up:
Click to expand...
 
Hi endlessness, I tried evaporating some DYC distilled white vinegar (5%) by itself to see if it evaporated cleanly BUT there is substantial residue left behind. Is this ok or do i need to find another brand of vinegar? I used a steam bath to evaporate the vinegar. This is my first attempt using D-Limonene and my plan is to salt the D-Limonene pulls with white vinegar then follow BLAB tek step 6 - acetate conversion...

www.dycvinegar.co.nz

White Vinegar - DYC

Being clear in colour, DYC White Vinegar is the vinegar of choice for cleaning jobs and it is ideal for pickling vegetables such as cauliflower and red cabbage, where other vinegars would cause discolouration to your pickling.
www.dycvinegar.co.nz www.dycvinegar.co.nz
 

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Ahh ok, that makes sense! :). So my understanding is, acetic acid and DMT will combine when I salt the D-Limonene. And when I evaporate the vinegar I'll have DMT acetate goo. And, if I chose to smoke it, I would be smoking DMT acetate, but if I do an acetate conversion it will become freebase goo without the acetate :thumb_up:
 
Yes basically, you may end up with excess acetic acid in the dmt acetate goo. My understanding is acetic acid can be both polar and non-polar so I'm unsure if excess acetic acid will stay in the limonene or vinegar layer. You can technically smoke the dmt acetate probably better smoking dmt freebase.

The goo isn't the best to work with but there is a easier work around that renders crystals that are both very stable, easy to work with, can be smoked and used for pharmahusca.

So you could just take the D-limonene (after you have conducted the pulls and ensured no water layer is present etc) and simply dump benzoic acid in the d-limonene, DMT benzoate will crash out of the limonene quite quickly (<20mins as it is insoluble in limonene). Then you can just decant the d-limonene and dry out the dmt benzoate crystals. The benzoate crystals are easier to work with than the acetate goo, can also be smoked and used orally. It is also easy to convert it to FB if one wants. Dmt benzoate crystals will have a slight lemon flavor when smoked due to the d-limonene.

Regardless, theres more than one way to skin a cheesecat or so to speak.
 
Haha, nice :lol: I'll have to do a bit of research in to benzoic acid, but it sounds fast and simple. I had a look online but can only find sodium benzoate. Would the DMT benzoic crystals be considered full spectrum still? Ideally, I'd like full-spectrum goo to go with changa but will look in to benzoic acid for sure.
 
Very interesting, thanks Trip. I'm using acacia which possibly has similar results; goo being mostly polymerised DMT.
 
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