Does Intelligence Matter in the DMT Experience?

[Gonzukes]

Everyone here has made some really great points ! DMT definitely isn't something that can be easily understood, so I feel like the better you are at understanding and learning, the more profound the experience will be to you. I mean, I've only done DMT once, and I can only recall 1% of what happened. That 1% was some of the most profound, magical, perspective-expanding, paradigm shattering stuff I've ever experienced.

Anyways, here's another way of looking at this situation:

I feel like if you treat DMT as if it were just a drug that gets you high, it will often just be a drug that gets you high.

However if you've done the research (or, even not I suppose), and you are curious and passionate about the mysteries within and without, then it will be much more.

In my opinion, it has a lot to do with intention. If your intentions are to learn, you will learn. If your intentions are to do drugs, you'll just get high.

 

[TGO]

In my opinion, it has a lot to do with intention. If your intentions are to learn, you will learn. If your intentions are to do drugs, you'll just get high.

I can agree with this although with most psychedelics, and especially DMT, going into it "just to get high" usually results in being slapped around a bit by it. I wasn't ever using DMT just to get high but for a while I wasn't respecting the whole process as well as I should have, which resulted in some frightening and/or dark experiences.

I am thankful for all my experiences though...good, bad, and anything in between. After all, you can't really appreciate the good without the bad, the light without the dark etc. etc...cliché, I know! In relation to this thread though, I think intelligence matters most when it comes to the integration aspect. I always ask myself, "Am I learning anything?" The answer is always, "Yes."

If it ever comes to a point where I feel like I'm not learning anything from it, it will be a sad and confusing day and a reevaluation of my life will be in order. Fortunately, I don't see that day ever arising.

 

[Gonzukes]

I can agree with this although with most psychedelics, and especially DMT, going into it "just to get high" usually results in being slapped around a bit by it. I wasn't ever using DMT just to get high but for a while I wasn't respecting the whole process as well as I should have, which resulted in some frightening and/or dark experiences.

I am thankful for all my experiences though...good, bad, and anything in between. After all, you can't really appreciate the good without the bad, the light without the dark etc. etc...cliché, I know! In relation to this thread though, I think intelligence matters most when it comes to the integration aspect. I always ask myself, "Am I learning anything?" The answer is always, "Yes."

If it ever comes to a point where I feel like I'm not learning anything from it, it will be a sad and confusing day and a reevaluation of my life will be in order. Fortunately, I don't see that day ever arising.

Great point! I definitely agree with you on this, and I have no doubt the people who abuse it just to get high will have a crazy hyperslap to set them straight.

But yeah, that also solidifies that intellect/thirst for knowledge attributes to the DMT experience, even if you have a horrific experience, you still learn from it.

 

[Global]

I think you can go in to get high, only to realize there is so much more to it than you thought. I do believe in the transformative power of DMT (sometimes). I don't think it always just amplifies who you are. There is a lot of room for development and change.

 

[Pile of cats]

As Disembodied mentioned, I've noticed in my dance with dmt that as I've worked towards the shedding of karma and applying the lessons learned from dmt that upon return I've gone deeper and deeper which eventually lead to what I'd refer to as THE message. Maybe many people just aren't paying attention to subtle information the experience is giving them which isn't allowing them to take that particular teaching on board, apply it and then move forward and deeper into the experience.

I'm sure that some people based on how they've lived their life and what they've put their attention towards are more open to going deep straight away but I think everyone could go deep with proper guidance / attitude

Obviously just my opinion but that's what I've noticed with people close to me.

Also I thought I'd add that on some of my deepest experiences I experience a moment before I was fired down winding tunnels where I felt like something deep within the nature of my self was being weighed / Examined.

 

[TGO]

I think you can go in to get high, only to realize there is so much more to it than you thought. I do believe in the transformative power of DMT (sometimes). I don't think it always just amplifies who you are. There is a lot of room for development and change.

Absolutely. One can go into it just to get high, but I wouldn't want to be that person, and I hope that people seriously consider what they are getting themselves into before going in with that kind of intention...

But of course, not everyone is in it to learn something or to better themselves, and that is okay if that is what floats their boat. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the potential to learn from DMT is immense and throwing away that aspect of the experience seems a bit pointless and wasteful, IMHO.

 

[Panpsychic]

Through my experience of sharing the spirit molecule to others, it seems as though the more intelligent and more educated ones have had more meaningful life altering experiences, whilst those that dropped out of middle school for example only seem to get a high from it. And yes, I didn’t believe it was possible, but I have seen first hand a few people abuse even pure white DMT like it was cocaine or something, doing big piles all night, just laughing and saying “Whoah!” and “Wow”, just having a good time and carrying on like it was nothing. If I did a 10th of what they were doing I’d be altered for life and done for the night.


So I guess what I am wondering is if others have noticed this same phenomena?


I would think that it doesn’t matter if one had zero education, that the experiences would be exactly the same, but after administering God particles to enough different groups, it seems as though the more intelligent only need a 30 mil dose to realize that there is Eternity in every Moment, Divinity in every Particle, and that all is One Organism, and that the less intelligent take dose after dose after dose (in a GVG with me lighting it) and only obtain a high and say Wow. Hmmm? Is an interpretation element being involved?


This is so confusing, especially seeing people first hand abusing and wasting big piles of it for the sake of fun without getting their ass kicked from the Universe. And every single one of them had little intelligence, at least compared to our US academic systems.

Good thread.

Yes it matters, but as has has been mentioned intelligence, wisdom and awareness overlap in some regards and its part of a range of attributes that lead to one deriving the most benefit from what DMT has to show you. Alongside this is openness to new experiences and willingness to question ones existing paradigms and belief systems, which also takes courage.

Its a mirror for general psychological and personal development. That said, an over analytical mind can also be a hindrance, like with spiritual practices its about the doing but understanding what you are seeing and even ability to see certain connections relate to ones awareness.

 

[purple sticky]

I really don't think that everyone is capable of justifying the use of drugs like this completely. I think it takes a lot of work to simply convince yourself that there's nothing wrong with doing DMT. Our culture pushes this 'Just Say No' agenda that sticks with us, whether we like it or not. Culture has us afraid and apprehensive about drug use. I think that's where critical thinking and skepticism are terribly important. You have to tackle that elephant in the room before you can really take in what's going on with DMT. I don't think it'd be a fantastic idea to go head first into DMT with the sort of fear or apprehension that culture has instilled in us.

I find intelligence to be such an incredible thing that we really don't have a whole lot of research on. Something like 40% of American adults can't read above a 6th grade level with 20% being functionally illiterate. Reading and comprehension skills are pretty bad across the board. I think the internet being posed as the 'information super highway' kind of led to this belief that it holds all the answers. Those answers are now being dosed out in short 15 second videos that are largely hearsay or misinformation. Our culture has adopted the internet for the repository of knowledge but that bank of knowledge has been corrupted long ago due to the largely nonexistent barrier to entry.

I do think people who are intelligent that possess the critical thinking skills and healthy skepticism can take more out of the experience than those who don't. Granted, I think the layperson would surely find something in it that was entertaining or interesting. I do think it takes someone who is willing to ask why a billion times just to do research to learn that they know less than they thought.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned something along the lines of being educated leading to being more solidified in your life or something of that nature. I have to say, the more I read and educate myself, the more I can see that I know very very little about everything. Not only that but the research has led me to see that NOBODY knows anything. Even if you start scraping scientific articles, you'll find that a lot of the claims are coming from secondary goals or just completely taken out of context. I think current technology has done an incredible job of making us all feel like ALL the answers are right at our fingertips. Formal research, especially in books, has led me to see that the feeling of having all the knowledge is only a feeling and it's not something we actually have.

In short, I feel like the intelligent person will exercise more skepticism and critical thinking to ask questions to research them. The layperson would likely just take the experience at face value and that it was merely a trick of the light.

 

[Pandora]

I think a well developed imagination (which may be corretable with intelligence) really matters.

 

[Icon]

I think a well developed imagination (which may be corretable with intelligence) really matters.

I don't have time to read the thread rn and I don't have a pre-formed opinion about the question, but I just wanted to say I agree with Pandora here.

IME, someone can approach DMT expecting it to fully perform for them, like turning on a movie and expecting entertainment. But I've realized that it takes a subtle form of participation and creativity of your own, beyond mere observation, to get the most out of it. Maybe comparable to dreaming - there's the letting go of control step, then a getting lost in the narrative.

 

[purple sticky]

I don't have time to read the thread rn and I don't have a pre-formed opinion about the question, but I just wanted to say I agree with Pandora here.

IME, someone can approach DMT expecting it to fully perform for them, like turning on a movie and expecting entertainment. But I've realized that it takes a subtle form of participation and creativity of your own, beyond mere observation, to get the most out of it. Maybe comparable to dreaming - there's the letting go of control step, then a getting lost in the narrative.

I think I fall into this category. I have a piss poor imagination and my dreams are never coherent or in color. I've never once perceived anything 'living' in any DMT experiences. At best, there was imagery that had some organic components, but I never hear, see or feel any sort of presence of life.

I still have meaningful experiences although the experiences are generally more or less exploring the effects of the drug on the brain. Through experiences, I'm often coherent enough to describe what's happening. I've even gone through simple experiments of reading, do large multiplication in my head and silly shit like that. I've had some pretty tough experiences that weren't exactly easy to bring back into my life but nothing that compares to some of the stuff people mention here regarding entities and beings. My wife has had experiences with beings indirectly and images of bugs. I like... don't.

 

[fink]

I think I fall into this category. I have a piss poor imagination and my dreams are never coherent or in color. I've never once perceived anything 'living' in any DMT experiences. At best, there was imagery that had some organic components, but I never hear, see or feel any sort of presence of life.

[Snip]

That is interesting for me because I have the complete opposite. Out of around 40 smoked DMT experiences there were probably only 3 that did not feel overpoweringly alive.

It has left me feeling utterly insignificant.

Yet simultaneously knowing 'I' am a participating fraction of that alive-ness.

'I' am part of the most incredible mystery



Edit: to unhijack thread I did want to add that I've seen videos of wild animals high on mushrooms and other substaces. They all looked utterly happy.

Less intelligence may be better for enjoying hyperspace.

 

[Panpsychic]

I think a well developed imagination (which may be corretable with intelligence) really matters.

It does, in a sense of being linked to creativity and open mindedness, although I would say this can be clarified in that its not that what you see on DMT is 'imaginary'. I would say it is more akin to the creative imagination that allows one to see and imagine new possibilities that one might not otherwise be even considering, to see outside the box so to speak.

Just as new scientific breakthroughs require creative imagination to be able to look at problems differently, one is limited by ones preexisting templates and it takes imagination to be able to consider others. Much of what I have experienced on Harmalas and DMT is far far beyond anything I could ever have imagined which is part of what validates for me its reality - yet I recognize that it took an open-mindedness to be able to consider much of it in the first place, it being so outside ordinary experience.

I really don't think that everyone is capable of justifying the use of drugs like this completely. I think it takes a lot of work to simply convince yourself that there's nothing wrong with doing DMT. Our culture pushes this 'Just Say No' agenda that sticks with us, whether we like it or not. Culture has us afraid and apprehensive about drug use. I think that's where critical thinking and skepticism are terribly important. You have to tackle that elephant in the room before you can really take in what's going on with DMT. I don't think it'd be a fantastic idea to go head first into DMT with the sort of fear or apprehension that culture has instilled in us.

Indeed, and this is an underappreciated attribute that got us here to begin with. I have been all for the 'psychedelic renaissance', but there is a reason I had been exploring psychedelics for near 25 years now whereas many of my peers had the some opportunities but did not come around until recently.

Not everyone could overcome the negativity that was associated with them and exercise the critical thinking to be firm in ones own judgements and that, sadly, is why they are so late to the dance but better late than never.

 

[Voidmatrix]

This current conversation brings to mind something I think I've mentioned before. But in line with creativity/imagination/intelligence, in many experiences, there seems to be a scanning or assessment before the space fully unfolds. I often wonder if the purpose of this scanning is order to assess what it can get away with showing our tiny lil monkey brains to be authentic as it is but to not break us also.

One love

 

[Icon]

I think I fall into this category. I have a piss poor imagination and my dreams are never coherent or in color. I've never once perceived anything 'living' in any DMT experiences. At best, there was imagery that had some organic components, but I never hear, see or feel any sort of presence of life.

I still have meaningful experiences although the experiences are generally more or less exploring the effects of the drug on the brain. Through experiences, I'm often coherent enough to describe what's happening. I've even gone through simple experiments of reading, do large multiplication in my head and silly shit like that. I've had some pretty tough experiences that weren't exactly easy to bring back into my life but nothing that compares to some of the stuff people mention here regarding entities and beings. My wife has had experiences with beings indirectly and images of bugs. I like... don't.

That's interesting. Have you seen colors on DMT or other psychedelics? I recall my first several trips being black and white, and at some point I started seeing things in color. The colors can be so vivid and colors you've never seen before. I recall an ayahuasca trip with a moving snake creature, but not a real snake, more like a series of dots, as if in the snake game from old cell phones. Every 200ms or so it would add another dot, partially overlapping the last, and change direction, and each dot was a different color. The rainbow dot snake felt sentient, I even considered it being the creator. That was my first time on pharmahuasca, it was a blast and that might have been the experience that unlocked color in my freebase trips too.

I've shared it with a lot of people and a pattern I noticed was women more often report objects, creatures and scenes from the real world. My trips are mostly abstract though, which seems more common with men. I never see entities unless it's a person, or an abstract visual that appears to be moving with intention. Sometimes the whole scene appears to be alive and connected, similar to the feeling of being in a forest, except it's made of abstract geometry. No elves for me though. I think the power of suggestion can prime people to see certain things, but don't be disappointed if you're not that easily convinced.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I really don't think that everyone is capable of justifying the use of drugs like this completely. I think it takes a lot of work to simply convince yourself that there's nothing wrong with doing DMT. Our culture pushes this 'Just Say No' agenda that sticks with us, whether we like it or not. Culture has us afraid and apprehensive about drug use. I think that's where critical thinking and skepticism are terribly important. You have to tackle that elephant in the room before you can really take in what's going on with DMT. I don't think it'd be a fantastic idea to go head first into DMT with the sort of fear or apprehension that culture has instilled in us.

I feel like this was well stated. The societal pressures and expectations are a real phenomenon and can very much lead to a hostile internal environment when something one wants doesn't line up in the societal framework and is even vilified.

I have been doing psychedelics for almost 20 years, and I still encounter this, having it arise from the subconscious to take form in a variety of ways in my conscious mind. I have C-PTSD, and it resulted from an authority figure, THE authority figure: my dad. I have projected my dad onto the world, or at least my nervous system has adapted to be prepared for potential eventualities I encountered with him. There was no winning trying to justify anything to him, so I am trapped justifying my useto society, as if I have to. I don't, but it simply feels that way.

That said, for some of what we're covering, it may go beyond intelligence. It could also be about other traits, such as stubbornness and tenacity. There are plenty of idiots with high level degrees, and plenty of idiots smoalking DMT. To really think critically and intelligently, give yourself to philosophy.

One love

P.s. The last sentence is really there for the fun slant rhyme opportunity.

 

[purple sticky]

I've always thought that popular western culture doesn't really value or seem to think about actual internal freedom. The ability to enjoy anything without some strange cultural expectation is super difficult. Even doing something like having a cocktail comes with a ton of burden. When you get into something so tragically taboo as psychedelics, those pressures can become quite a bit.

That's not to say that a little bit of practice can't solve that. I think anybody can work on themselves to find something that they're capable of enjoying without any pressure. I went through a phase of figuring out that I never really felt like I had a pure mental freedom. The ability to do something and be completely at peace with the decision is something important. Being able to absolutely rid your mind of ridiculous influence is some sort of intelligence, I suppose.

 

[brettsta]

Through my experience of sharing the spirit molecule to others, it seems as though the more intelligent and more educated ones have had more meaningful life altering experiences, whilst those that dropped out of middle school for example only seem to get a high from it. And yes, I didn’t believe it was possible, but I have seen first hand a few people abuse even pure white DMT like it was cocaine or something, doing big piles all night, just laughing and saying “Whoah!” and “Wow”, just having a good time and carrying on like it was nothing. If I did a 10th of what they were doing I’d be altered for life and done for the night.


So I guess what I am wondering is if others have noticed this same phenomena?


I would think that it doesn’t matter if one had zero education, that the experiences would be exactly the same, but after administering God particles to enough different groups, it seems as though the more intelligent only need a 30 mil dose to realize that there is Eternity in every Moment, Divinity in every Particle, and that all is One Organism, and that the less intelligent take dose after dose after dose (in a GVG with me lighting it) and only obtain a high and say Wow. Hmmm? Is an interpretation element being involved?


This is so confusing, especially seeing people first hand abusing and wasting big piles of it for the sake of fun without getting their ass kicked from the Universe. And every single one of them had little intelligence, at least compared to our US academic systems.

Hi there , yes I've noticed this inability to breakthrough for some individuals, even under heavy dose .
But I don't think it's got anything to do with intellect , in my experience everything we think we know
becomes Irrelevant and intuition takes over the second we enter that strange world

I think it's because if your names not on the list your not coming in
One of DMT's many unique qualities is it's ability to pick and choose who it allows to spend time, in there Realm. That's what makes it such a privilege.