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- Thread starter xrrv
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332211
Rising Star
hmmm, you might be experiencing impermanence:
nothing in this universe is fixed, or unchanging.
if you go to the molecular level, every atom is in constant swinging motions,
so even if the wall in front of you seems "solid" and you can not walk through it,
it is not as solid as it looks as the atoms are swinging.
the ssame with your mind: there are constantly thoughts and feelings arising,
and they are interdependent, eg. a certain thought might trigger a certain
feeling and vice versa. but also this is ever changing and trying to keep
an emotion from vanishing or rising, causes problems...
the rest of your ideas are just attempts of the mind to make sense of that.
keep thinking, and do not think too much
nothing in this universe is fixed, or unchanging.
if you go to the molecular level, every atom is in constant swinging motions,
so even if the wall in front of you seems "solid" and you can not walk through it,
it is not as solid as it looks as the atoms are swinging.
the ssame with your mind: there are constantly thoughts and feelings arising,
and they are interdependent, eg. a certain thought might trigger a certain
feeling and vice versa. but also this is ever changing and trying to keep
an emotion from vanishing or rising, causes problems...
the rest of your ideas are just attempts of the mind to make sense of that.
keep thinking, and do not think too much
PsyDuckmonkey
witch
Where does your sense of such certainty come from? Was it something you 'realized' during a trip, or was it 'shown to you'? It's a good idea to always treat such experiences with a level of skepticism.
PsyDuckmonkey
witch
Well personally I disagree with a lot of the 'axioms' you stated, so I cannot offer insight to fill out the blanks in your theory.
Personally I have had experiences that were in direct contradiction to each other in what they implied as to the nature of reality. So right now my theory is that reality is kinda like the proverbial elephant to a blind man. Sometimes it's long and thin like a snake, sometimes it's flat and floppy like a blanket, sometimes it's round and huge like a barrel, sometimes it's cylindrical and hard like a tree...
You've touched the elephant's tail, and have a really deep realization of what it's like. It's important to keep an open mind. The elephant is not a tail.
Personally I have had experiences that were in direct contradiction to each other in what they implied as to the nature of reality. So right now my theory is that reality is kinda like the proverbial elephant to a blind man. Sometimes it's long and thin like a snake, sometimes it's flat and floppy like a blanket, sometimes it's round and huge like a barrel, sometimes it's cylindrical and hard like a tree...
You've touched the elephant's tail, and have a really deep realization of what it's like. It's important to keep an open mind. The elephant is not a tail.
PsyDuckmonkey
witch
You seem to lack even the most basic respect for other viewpoints. It may come across as a shock, but no, I don’t trust you, and how much or how little doubt is left in you is completely irrelevant. If you want others to accept your words without question, I suggest starting a cult.
Yes, the realization that you are god IS the elephant’s tail in my view.
Yes, the realization that you are god IS the elephant’s tail in my view.
xss27
Rising Star
xrrv said:
Whilst I think there's the possibility you may have touched upon something real in your experience/s, I think you're trying too hard to translate it back through a relative human viewpoint. Your concept structure is, well, a bit too human.
If the Universe rotates that immediately implies something external for it to be rotating relative to - all motion is relative to something else. A single particle in the abyss could be moving a million miles an hour but you'd never know because there's nothing relative to it with which to compare. Your diagram shows this misunderstanding (you drew a boundary).
I would guess you entertained the notion of heaven and hell before any of these experiences, yes?
DreadedShaman
Rising Star
Well I kinda wanted to jump in on this, but kinda want to stay out of it after reading some replies haha.
So I'll keep it short.
I can't say the picture you attached speaks to me, it depicts a singular revolutionary cycle and I can't say I think this is how the universe works.
I don't think you're totally wrong.... But a circle doesn't do it justice. An image or a mandelbrot fractal comes to mind when I think of how the universe functions. But I'll leave it at that.
So I'll keep it short.
I can't say the picture you attached speaks to me, it depicts a singular revolutionary cycle and I can't say I think this is how the universe works.
I don't think you're totally wrong.... But a circle doesn't do it justice. An image or a mandelbrot fractal comes to mind when I think of how the universe functions. But I'll leave it at that.
DreadedShaman
Rising Star
xrrv said:
Too simplified if you ask me... Duality implies a boundary imo, dark and light let's say. But dark and light are only the extremes, there are greys amongst the dark and the light.
I'll just leave this here:
You say we don't have free will. But what exactly, would free will be, if it would exist?
I personally find this predeterminism vs free will issue, pretty confusing.
Say you wanted to prove that free will exists...what should such a proof look like?
Could on the other hand you disprove the existence of it, without knowing yet, what exactly constitutes the experience of free will?
I personally find this predeterminism vs free will issue, pretty confusing.
Say you wanted to prove that free will exists...what should such a proof look like?
Could on the other hand you disprove the existence of it, without knowing yet, what exactly constitutes the experience of free will?
DreadedShaman
Rising Star
xrrv said:
All I'm saying is to me duality implies a boundary, a gradient doesn't have a boundary. I'm basing this simply off your description, not your skills at shading a circle
xss27
Rising Star
xrrv said:
If the Universe rotates around God, then you are implying that God is something objective and relative for it to rotate relative to. This I don't agree with. To my mind God is [the] Absolute and is not objective, there is nothing relative to it yet it contains all the relative.
I think you may be entertaining a solipsistic paradigm in your head and would caution you to be careful with how much you invest yourself in these ideas. Don't lose track of what is in front of you
DreadedShaman
Rising Star
xrrv said:DreadedShaman said:All I'm saying is to me duality implies a boundary, a gradient doesn't have a boundary. I'm basing this simply off your description, not your skills at shading a circle
Can there be a gradient and duality at the same time?
Why does duality necessarily need a boundary?
Because, as I see things, as soon as there is a gradient, it is either a signularity or a multitude. Duality says that there are to sides, left-right, black-white.
With a gradient there is always grey, which is niether black nor white, but somewhere in the middle
Duality is too much of an absolute to me to be honest. And remember, only a sith seals in absolutes.
Attachments
xss27
Rising Star
xrrv said:
It sounds like you've had a bit of a traumatic OBE experience or are having some difficulty reconciling your feelings and realizations from that experience. Give yourself some time to cool off - try grounding yourself back here in the mundane. Then once you've levelled off then go back and contemplate these things; I think you're trying too hard to convey something you felt/experienced through relative concepts too quickly.
I know what you're referring to with the loneliness. When you realize without doubt that none of this is real, yourself as you knew yourself included, it can be very traumatic. But it will pass. And so will your conception of suffering - you'll come to see that it doesn't matter in the end.
Maybe read some non-dualism literature. Maharshi, Nisargadatta etc. But rest first.
Beatriz
Bienvenidos a bardo
Certainty and wisdom are inversely proportional.
There's a vast, fractal supply of complexity in the universe. You're unlikely to run out of new things, no matter how complete the picture that a vision may present to you.
Is the human mind equivalent to God? We're one way for the universe to know itself, but not the only way. Nobody worships us, and our powers are limited to one world in one cosmic domain. There are probably many beings with more power and understanding who would nonetheless avoid calling themselves gods.
Don't fall prey to the hubris of so many mystics who have experienced mind-shattering visions. You aren't the first person to have an intense experience and declare himself god. You're lucky the Inquisition isn't still around, or they would already be calling for your head.
Don't overestimate the importance of human experience to the universe as a whole. It's not half heaven or half hell. Most of the cosmos doesn't give a rat's ass about your emotions, and simply exists.
Shun hubris, young padawan.
There's a vast, fractal supply of complexity in the universe. You're unlikely to run out of new things, no matter how complete the picture that a vision may present to you.
Is the human mind equivalent to God? We're one way for the universe to know itself, but not the only way. Nobody worships us, and our powers are limited to one world in one cosmic domain. There are probably many beings with more power and understanding who would nonetheless avoid calling themselves gods.
Don't fall prey to the hubris of so many mystics who have experienced mind-shattering visions. You aren't the first person to have an intense experience and declare himself god. You're lucky the Inquisition isn't still around, or they would already be calling for your head.
Don't overestimate the importance of human experience to the universe as a whole. It's not half heaven or half hell. Most of the cosmos doesn't give a rat's ass about your emotions, and simply exists.
Shun hubris, young padawan.
Asher7
Professional Tracker
Hey there xrrv 8)
This thread actually hits home with recent events in my life. I’m kind of “manic” I guess you would say with my concern about death or something horrible happening. Usually it’s present but not in the forefront, other times it’s the focal point, other times I forget for a little while and it slips my mind. I’ve decided to use it as a tool, so I’ll be the dd or whatever. Sort of Mother Hen my flock you know?
I don’t trip much. In the early days without concern I had great profound trips. Now I have these panic attack inducing “realizations” that I keep forgetting and remembering over and over. How did I end up here, in a universal torture chamber where everyone goes to the slaughter mills and along the way beaten and abused in forms and fashions no sane person could even dream it up? We’re all in it, we could be trapped in a car and burned alive. What’s the chances of that and then what’s the chances I know two people it personally happened too on separate occasions about 10 miles apart? So it must happen frighteningly often... imagine a real salvia nightmare where you actually didn’t take a drug. So yeah, when I start freaking out I usually get in the shower and sit down in the dark.
You want to know where and when you are? Here and now. Will you go? Yeah. When? Eventually now. It’s by faith you make it so I hope you have some sort of back up because it really is hell out there. The beauty comes when you have that faith enough to just let go. I was having a hard time and decided to go to church so to speak and had myself a handful of mushrooms. With all that comes from that aside I walked away from that with a well timed message through “intuition” that inside the bubble of existence there is nowhere you can become lost because it all is the creator, and life is a part of the creation which is no minute detail to skip over in your assessment of where and when we are. You know how you get those peak of the trip revelations? Mine was to just relax and don’t blow a gasket, this “presence” has always been present even during times we weren’t and forgot about what we actually know to be true.
That’s what my higher power told me. Now the scary part is to consider what if my higher power is some mushrooms getting me stoned and acting a fool, and we’re trapped on a sick carnival ride down death row and it’s no holds barred. One of those is gonna be shown to be correct sooner or later.
This thread actually hits home with recent events in my life. I’m kind of “manic” I guess you would say with my concern about death or something horrible happening. Usually it’s present but not in the forefront, other times it’s the focal point, other times I forget for a little while and it slips my mind. I’ve decided to use it as a tool, so I’ll be the dd or whatever. Sort of Mother Hen my flock you know?
I don’t trip much. In the early days without concern I had great profound trips. Now I have these panic attack inducing “realizations” that I keep forgetting and remembering over and over. How did I end up here, in a universal torture chamber where everyone goes to the slaughter mills and along the way beaten and abused in forms and fashions no sane person could even dream it up? We’re all in it, we could be trapped in a car and burned alive. What’s the chances of that and then what’s the chances I know two people it personally happened too on separate occasions about 10 miles apart? So it must happen frighteningly often... imagine a real salvia nightmare where you actually didn’t take a drug. So yeah, when I start freaking out I usually get in the shower and sit down in the dark.
You want to know where and when you are? Here and now. Will you go? Yeah. When? Eventually now. It’s by faith you make it so I hope you have some sort of back up because it really is hell out there. The beauty comes when you have that faith enough to just let go. I was having a hard time and decided to go to church so to speak and had myself a handful of mushrooms. With all that comes from that aside I walked away from that with a well timed message through “intuition” that inside the bubble of existence there is nowhere you can become lost because it all is the creator, and life is a part of the creation which is no minute detail to skip over in your assessment of where and when we are. You know how you get those peak of the trip revelations? Mine was to just relax and don’t blow a gasket, this “presence” has always been present even during times we weren’t and forgot about what we actually know to be true.
That’s what my higher power told me. Now the scary part is to consider what if my higher power is some mushrooms getting me stoned and acting a fool, and we’re trapped on a sick carnival ride down death row and it’s no holds barred. One of those is gonna be shown to be correct sooner or later.
PsyDuckmonkey
witch
What I was also formerly implying, and you apparently are still not getting, is that assuming that your experience (call it 'vision', 'knowledge', 'certainty', or whatever else you want to call it) is absolute and infallible, IS hubris.
Why should anyone prove that the universe does not repeat, given that you're not doing a very good of proving that it does repeat, either. We all believe things, may have experiences that leave us with a feeling of certainty. You're just one of us. Nobody beside you yourself has any reason to take your claims of certainty and absolute knowledge for anything other than a madman's ravings, especially since there's an old adage that the definition of insanity is the complete absence of doubt. Your state of mind certainly seems to match the description.
Besides, if you were blessed with total knowledge, what use do you have for the input of others? You pretend to expect others to help you out, but all you do when communicated to is put down those talking to you from a high horse, and pretend that everyone other than you is misguided or idiotic.
Also, the experience you described is what many, including me, have already had, and then moved on from. I know the place you were. It is currently my conviction, after so many other experiences, that it's a very limited view. Kinda like, when your eyes are closed, you only see darkness and weird blobs. Going around telling people what the world is like, based on what you saw with your eyes closed, and then insulting and talking down to people who have actually looked around with eyes open, multiple times, is rather unwise and deplorable.
Personally I am no longer in the business of convincing others of questions of cosmology. It is a lot of work, quite pointless, and often hurtful. So I'm quite okay with you having perfect certainty that you've 'got it', that you've 'seen it all'. However, your attitude is directly in violation of Nexus rules, and kinda toxic. So please try to get off the high horse, and stop preaching.
Why should anyone prove that the universe does not repeat, given that you're not doing a very good of proving that it does repeat, either. We all believe things, may have experiences that leave us with a feeling of certainty. You're just one of us. Nobody beside you yourself has any reason to take your claims of certainty and absolute knowledge for anything other than a madman's ravings, especially since there's an old adage that the definition of insanity is the complete absence of doubt. Your state of mind certainly seems to match the description.
Besides, if you were blessed with total knowledge, what use do you have for the input of others? You pretend to expect others to help you out, but all you do when communicated to is put down those talking to you from a high horse, and pretend that everyone other than you is misguided or idiotic.
Also, the experience you described is what many, including me, have already had, and then moved on from. I know the place you were. It is currently my conviction, after so many other experiences, that it's a very limited view. Kinda like, when your eyes are closed, you only see darkness and weird blobs. Going around telling people what the world is like, based on what you saw with your eyes closed, and then insulting and talking down to people who have actually looked around with eyes open, multiple times, is rather unwise and deplorable.
Personally I am no longer in the business of convincing others of questions of cosmology. It is a lot of work, quite pointless, and often hurtful. So I'm quite okay with you having perfect certainty that you've 'got it', that you've 'seen it all'. However, your attitude is directly in violation of Nexus rules, and kinda toxic. So please try to get off the high horse, and stop preaching.
RoundAbout
Rising Star
PsyDuckmonkey said:
Yes, many people have had experiences where they felt the absolute truth is revealed to them and, strangely enough, these penultimate truths and grand models of the universe seem to be very different in the details. In my opinion, labeling the experience as an epiphany and swallowing it whole while sober is not useful. In my experience, these extremely general realizations don't contain any testable hypotheses, and my "glimpses behind the curtain" somehow haven't conferred any additional understanding about the universe. They only seem to if I slavishly attach myself to the vision, put on blinders, and only view the world through that paradigm; chasing the deceptions of confirmation bias and seeking non-existent information.
I want to delete this paragraph; I write as though I know something about this topic with certainty, which I don't. Why do you not have similar compulsions, xrrv, and why is your absolute truth the one presented and discussed in the forum, unlike the many others confined to trip reports?
Asher7
Professional Tracker
I’m not sure I’m correctly picturing your timeline of these euphorias and hells. Are they like random beats or do they fall into a pattern?
When talking about religion, one aspect of there not being a God trips me out. If there is none and this is chaos, that means we can be reincarnated as anything, not just in the universe but, any possibility. Blobfish on the ocean. All of this is completely random and life (you) are suject without mercy forever.
Is that what you mean by repeating hells? You want to know where you are, that implies some sort of layout or even pattern. How does that look when you visualize it? I’m trying to picture the “stage” or kinda storyboard the layout so I can better see what you’re saying.
When talking about religion, one aspect of there not being a God trips me out. If there is none and this is chaos, that means we can be reincarnated as anything, not just in the universe but, any possibility. Blobfish on the ocean. All of this is completely random and life (you) are suject without mercy forever.
Is that what you mean by repeating hells? You want to know where you are, that implies some sort of layout or even pattern. How does that look when you visualize it? I’m trying to picture the “stage” or kinda storyboard the layout so I can better see what you’re saying.
Is that the only way for us to be free? To have infinite possibilities?xrrv said:
And what if there would be a theoretically infinite set of finite possibilities?
KannaRas
Rising Star
Seems to me that free will kind of exists , in a strange way where its been locked in predestiened walls and path's that leads to very small varaity of choices , then is it really free will ?
as if you have free will to choose a kind of coffe from a coffe machine yet its not a kitchen where you can make it to with yar own mind
seems like free will is something to be practiced like a skill
yet the use of that skill has been forbidden and looked after as a religious person would say a sin
does seem like the universe is rotating and repeating itself as like a lesson unlearnt and been on repeat since time began
ya know how they say
one person's eternal hell is another person's eternal heaven ?
from my experience drifting the streets while tuned into the universe
thats its in a state of deep confusion
walk around the street in bliss , youll get bombarded with negative toughts of the suffering
walk around the streets in suffering , youll still attract negative toughts of the less fortunate
the tought that one has to learn of suffering in order to enjoy what he has is strange
thinking of the human experience as a lesson of suffering to move on to an afterlife of bliss floating in the colorful nothingness of space is not something i agree with
not sure what i belive
i can tell you i know about well arr to call it reincarnation would lead to pre existing toughts of the subject
yet i have went to places where ive met people i know in other body's
could i be sure it was them ?
im definatly sure it was
hell ive also met people and later on saw them as animals walking about
how is that possible ?
im trying to figure that out myself
maybe i am hunted by their souls and they keep poping up in diffrent physical bodys around me
or maybe i am hunting their souls and i keep finding diffrent physical body's of them
i have stranger things i could say i know rather then belive but itd take being on a diffrent state to access those toughts and memories
Aye yeaa time does not exists
Time is a tool to move us trough the day i say
letting go of all concept of time for a day lets one tune in to the surronding alot more i know
having no tought of mind to know i must be there at X.xx & anything like that or even i must be in said date at some place and then walking about with the flow of the force
is definatly a tool to tune in
tou in most places like busy streets ect.. ect .. i would suggest aginst tuning in
no need to explain why
tou giving it a shot sure shows one how much could be absorbed and influenced by whats around
how every thing speaks from colors shapes of walls or random movment done by people
if you walk with the concept of an eternal now and you are where you are cause you are
every thing start speaking and leading you to where you want to go
thus said - where you want to go is not always a good place to go
as i said befor seems like this universe counts on suffering to be teaching hes lessons
strange universe this is for sure
as if you have free will to choose a kind of coffe from a coffe machine yet its not a kitchen where you can make it to with yar own mind
seems like free will is something to be practiced like a skill
yet the use of that skill has been forbidden and looked after as a religious person would say a sin
does seem like the universe is rotating and repeating itself as like a lesson unlearnt and been on repeat since time began
ya know how they say
one person's eternal hell is another person's eternal heaven ?
from my experience drifting the streets while tuned into the universe
thats its in a state of deep confusion
walk around the street in bliss , youll get bombarded with negative toughts of the suffering
walk around the streets in suffering , youll still attract negative toughts of the less fortunate
the tought that one has to learn of suffering in order to enjoy what he has is strange
thinking of the human experience as a lesson of suffering to move on to an afterlife of bliss floating in the colorful nothingness of space is not something i agree with
not sure what i belive
i can tell you i know about well arr to call it reincarnation would lead to pre existing toughts of the subject
yet i have went to places where ive met people i know in other body's
could i be sure it was them ?
im definatly sure it was
hell ive also met people and later on saw them as animals walking about
how is that possible ?
im trying to figure that out myself
maybe i am hunted by their souls and they keep poping up in diffrent physical bodys around me
or maybe i am hunting their souls and i keep finding diffrent physical body's of them
i have stranger things i could say i know rather then belive but itd take being on a diffrent state to access those toughts and memories
Aye yeaa time does not exists
Time is a tool to move us trough the day i say
letting go of all concept of time for a day lets one tune in to the surronding alot more i know
having no tought of mind to know i must be there at X.xx & anything like that or even i must be in said date at some place and then walking about with the flow of the force
is definatly a tool to tune in
tou in most places like busy streets ect.. ect .. i would suggest aginst tuning in
no need to explain why
tou giving it a shot sure shows one how much could be absorbed and influenced by whats around
how every thing speaks from colors shapes of walls or random movment done by people
if you walk with the concept of an eternal now and you are where you are cause you are
every thing start speaking and leading you to where you want to go
thus said - where you want to go is not always a good place to go
as i said befor seems like this universe counts on suffering to be teaching hes lessons
strange universe this is for sure
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