Engineers and Ayahuasca

[Shnuffles]

So I have just begun flirting with the idea of experimenting with ayahuasca, and am curious to know if there are any of you with engineering experience who would be willing to share their experiences with me.

I ask, because the mindset an engineer brings to the table is much different than that of most other professions. Very scientific, mechanical, and objective. And I have noticed that, although I am not an engineer quite yet, the mindset I have still hold these traits and has brought some interesting challenges to my experiences with other psychedelics, like LSD and vaporized DMT, particularly, a certain level of difficulty in completely letting go of control.

I feel that being such a scientific person who often deals with experimentation and controlling the parameters very rigidly, it makes it particularly difficult to let go, so I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone else with a similar background has had similar experiences, and if ayahuasca was affected in the same way. I'm also hoping to learn some good tips relating to these things as well.

 

[scelsi]

Sometimes with shrooms happens that this overcalculating, over controlling brain can stop the effects, and trip.

With pharmahuasca swim experienced often a 15-20 mins fight between this calculator-controller and the medicine. The main thing is that the brain dont want to loose control and dont want to loose its leadership.

But with Ayahuasca there's not much to do. You can feel the consciousness getting lost, and you know there's nothing to do (this is actually the pre-purga moment, the hardest moment).

 

[RoundAbout]

So I have just begun flirting with the idea of experimenting with ayahuasca, and am curious to know if there are any of you with engineering experience who would be willing to share their experiences with me.

I ask, because the mindset an engineer brings to the table is much different than that of most other professions. Very scientific, mechanical, and objective. And I have noticed that, although I am not an engineer quite yet, the mindset I have still hold these traits and has brought some interesting challenges to my experiences with other psychedelics, like LSD and vaporized DMT, particularly, a certain level of difficulty in completely letting go of control.

I feel that being such a scientific person who often deals with experimentation and controlling the parameters very rigidly, it makes it particularly difficult to let go, so I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone else with a similar background has had similar experiences, and if ayahuasca was affected in the same way. I'm also hoping to learn some good tips relating to these things as well.

Many people with strong egos also have difficulty letting go, maybe they could offer some insight.

Another person recently joined and let everyone know they are an engineer. They've used ayahuasca. Perhaps you could message them.

 

[Loveall]

My experience in a nutshell:

I saw my scientific training as a mental prison I was not even aware of. Psychedelics made me aware of this mental wall and broke it down. I feel like I regained what I would call my lost spirituality and humanity which reductionist material science took away. The experience was humbling and knocked down my ego a few notches, making me more appreciative of the world, which is something I am deeply thankful for.

The process was not easy. Accepting that I had been wrong and arrogant and lying to myself for decades was a tough lesson, but eventually I realized I was the only one making it tough.

Below is an picture that I think sheds light on the process.

 

[Jees]

As long as you do not identify yourself with the limitations that science throws upon itself, there's no problem imho, then you analytical mind can even demystify things as it sees less overly emotional. In many cases it helped me in tuning into 'observer' status, pure observation (no more) as part of a analytical mind set makes sense to me and helpful when things get hairy.

Parts of shamanism made me afraid of dangers to protect me from, and it was analytical experience that a lot of that was not productive at all. Ymmv!

 

[Shnuffles]

My experience in a nutshell:

I saw my scientific training as a mental prison I was not even aware of. Psychedelics made me aware of this mental wall and broke it down. I feel like I regained what I would call my lost spirituality and humanity which reductionist material science took away. The experience was humbling and knocked down my ego a few notches, making me more appreciative of the world, which is something I am deeply thankful for.

I very much agree with this perspective. My analytical mind has been such a limitation to my self exploration. it really does feel like a mental prison, like I can no longer simply sit on the beach and enjoy the view. my mind goes right to explaining what each object is, how it was formed, what it is made out of, how it works, etc. I always have to try and put words to it and narrate the experience with my own judgements of it. thats a big reason why I've been having such difficulty breaking through with vaporized DMT. something happens that isnt optimal and I cant just let it go. "this isn't the experience I was trying to have, this isn't a breakthrough, I didn't do it right" things like that flowing through my mind and distracting me from the trip, often being the primary reason i dont breakthrough is my commitment to the idea of breaking through. I am so set on the idea that you take three tokes, close your eyes, lay back, and have the experience, that I always forget to try and stay awake for as long as humanly possible to take that final hit, to take as much in as I physically can.

 

[Algodritmo]

Hey, another engineer here, and I can totally relate with your issues of control, analysis, explanation, etc. Haven't tried Aya though, and not really interested for now.

My girlfriend is a primary teacher, and her trips are amazing with way lower dose than me (even adjusting by body weight), and I can only attribute it to how our minds work.
I haven't had any "breakthrough", and although until now I'm blaming my method (vape), it's probably more than that.

I'd love to know how your "progress" in this aspect goes.

Don't get my wrong, I like my mind... I just want to experience the same that "the rest" experience, and describe it and analyze it with "our" mindset :lol:

 

[viceversa]

I have done DMT, and in particular vaporised with sublingual harmine, many times. I have always had a very non-mystical mindset, and this continues to be the case. And yet, I never had any difficulties with DMT. DMT is a serotonergic agonist, meaning that it tries to bind to the receptors where your endogenous neurohormones would normally bind, and in that prevents them from doing so. This is temporary. DMT borrows your receptors. It's quite calming really, it pauses your narrative for a while. The underlying pharmacology is extremely reliable, which I would say is quite reassuring for an engineer's mind.

On the other hand, some people, unaware of the pharmacology involved, might suspect the powerful effects they're experiencing are somehow harmful. Then it can feel like DMT tries to push you out of your own awareness. I think it really helps to remember that the molecular processes are merely doing their job, and that DMT obeys the agonistic biochemical pattern very predictably. It's doing exactly what it is supposed to do.

Just imagine jumping into a pool: once you're in mid-air, the best way to ensure a good outcome is to remain aerodynamic and expect to dive straight into the water in a few moments. Once you've jumped, gravity is just doing what it is supposed to do.

I would say, it does require a certain attitude. It's the same impulse that drives romantic lovers to leave their old lives behind and run away carelessly into the world (then again, once DMT is metabolised and your receptors become available to endogenous serotonin, you come back just as reliably). Whether you have this impulse or not, has actually nothing to do with your professional training as an engineer. I personally would wait until I developed this impulse, before an oral ingestion. Even tho I have no experience with oral ingestion. I would imagine vaporised DMT with sublingual harmine is a good practice.

Also, always a good idea to keep some Valium on hand, just in case you have to abort.

P.S.: I'm looking for collaborators I'm a stray - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[Algodritmo]

viceversa, I share your view on psychedelics, as I just said in the ps topic.

But, I disagree with the "expectancy" that you mention in the previous post. Actually, we don't expect anything of drugs, we can't know for sure what's the effect before trying them, and the scientific explanations that we have in terms of receptors and etc explain only a tiny fraction of what there is.
That's why Alexander Shulgin work was so important. Human trial. There was no other way, and there still isn't. When Hamilton Morris interviewed him he cleverly explained that we can't even assume a certain dosage range for a drug, in any way.

So, we know what to expect, we know that it's "safe", etc... but I don't think that's due to the way you put it, but simply through many psychonauts experiences.

And for me, even when you've read a lot and you know what to expect, how it works (more or less), etc etc... the instincts that are triggered with drugs, are beyond most of conscious control. The instinctive fear or joy that even a slight dose of DMT triggers, even knowing that they are totally irrational, they are also overpowering.

 

[sofakinold]

I used to see myself in the "engineer mindset" of cause and effect. Very useful when building prototype hang gliders and building houses. But over time I realized my insights and spacial resolution were from my own intuition and not calculations and criteria based perimeters. So, for me, I began seeing all the building and fabrication as "art" and form as an expression of flow. This may have come from my psychedelic experiences or from the fact that everything is a product of motion (ie vibration and energy) and the things we experience in psychedelics are the product of the biologic flow of things within our being (ie the flow of blood, currents and body fluids are translated and exaggerated into visuals and feelings).

And now thoughts have evolved more toward the realization that duality rules and the universe in not solely material. We exist in the material dimension of a much more complex creation. With the underlying basis of that creation being of information and conscious. We are also spirit beings with connection to those unseen other dimensions of this creation. My use of the DMT confirmed this reality for me. As well as the science that has been leaning closer to this reality. (ie LHC conformation of the Higgs as the "ether" and conforming to 8D geometry, which is sacred geometry expanded into 3 dimensional space)

That said; going into the DMT world is not an exercise into controlling my biochemistry. But a shifting of vibration by chemical means. A very real glimpse into those other realms of the creation. A connection to the intelligence that produces the reality of all life. However interpreted by our own sub-conscious. That puts a whole different twist on the experience and any controls we might think we have. This is the shamanic understanding of the plant medicines that Western minds have such a hard time with. And why so many people have such fear.

(BTW life is the anti-entropy that proves the existence of that information as actively intelligent)

 

[viceversa]

And for me, even when you've read a lot and you know what to expect, how it works (more or less), etc etc... the instincts that are triggered with drugs, are beyond most of conscious control. The instinctive fear or joy that even a slight dose of DMT triggers, even knowing that they are totally irrational, they are also overpowering.

I think the more knowledge is internalised, the more it rewires our intuition/instincts too. This is why very advanced mathematicians are able to conjecture theorems, instinctively, without necessarily knowing the proof yet. Studying something (not in a rot memorisation way), over a long period of time, can shape and change our instincts, intuition and affective reactions.

In contrast to what some people might argue, I find it is the mystical and metaphysical mindset which is actually difficult for Western minds to let go of. It continues to operate unconsciously and implicitly in our daily lives, because it is inherited through the structure of our language, culture and society. It is only certain modern and highly specialised scientific fields, which have abandoned the more subtle primitive premises. For example, when the "ether" was dropped in non-newtonian physics, or when the "noumenon" was dropped from epistemology.

However, the progress in those technical fields remains disconnected from our thinking about personal life affairs in day to day living. So, most people fall into two categories. One, those for whom DMT catalyses a regression back to the inherited, old metaphysical/mystical system of thinking, and who subordinate modern epistemology to it, blaming the inconsistencies between the two on the shortcomings of the latter. Two, those who are stuck in between, not quite having revised the old entirely, yet sensible enough not to disgrace the new by subordinating it.

Very few fall in the third possible category. That is understandable. Even among professional mathematicians, it took at
least one generation before non-euclidean geometry started becoming intuitive.

 

[Jagube]

I think an analytical mindset and Ayahuasca can complement each other in potentially very fruitful ways. That's not to say it's a walk in the park.

An analytical mindset may be an indication of a developed, disciplined, ordered, rigorous mind, which are precious traits. But it can be one-sided and limiting. Ayahuasca can help expand it, to embrace more facets of reality and bring more wholeness. In other words, an analytical mindset is like a good starting point, and Ayahuasca can take it from there, to bring out the best of both worlds.