Fear of Non-dualism justified?

[amazingino]

Hi all,

Some time ago while trying to potentiate the smoked DMT I accidentally overdosed extracted syrian rue harmalas and experienced the most weird and uncomfortable trip that really was harsh on my whole being. I was shaken for days later and even now (few months later) I'm not really sure what to think about it so I decided to ask for your input.

So what happened in few words is that I smoked harmalas until the reality started to collapse on itself. There weren't much of visual hallucinations but something like inner realization that it is the end of the world and is happening right now. That everything was just a projection of my own mind and that I was the creator of it all. At first I found that surprising and interesting as it was exactly the definition of Nirvana, I was melting into higher self or more precisely realizing I was Him all the time, but it continued to be more and more overwhelming and anxiety was growing in me exponentially...
I was losing the touch with reality but not in a good way, in a way of insanity as I was starting to realize that everything was fake around me, it was frightening so I was confused as somewhere inside I felt that it was supposed to feel peaceful, soothing and relaxing. I quickly put the pipe away but it was too late, I was in a vortex in constant acceleration and started to shake and perspire abundantly, cold sweat. I was trapped in a huge "deja vu", my whole life was meaningless and I was restlessness for 1 or 2 hours praying god to stop and give me back my everyday reality and my ego so I can feel separate from THIS. Yes it was that scary

Okay now that you know what I experienced even if it is very hard to explain, I can proceed to spiritual part of the experience that lingers ever since. When people talk about Non-dualism, and Brahman and such things where essentially we are all One and same being or consciousness, I think I understand that. But not in a positive way.
What I felt was an immense loneliness of the Unity, disturbing, sad, unbearable loneliness... I felt like the Unity split itself into multiplicity in order to avoid being alone! And that we are trying to reassemble the parts thinking that the multiplicity is wrong, not thinking about the final result which is the utter ETERNAL LONELINESS.

I consider myself to be very positive and optimistic human, I love nature and the world but now I think I brought back some of the loneliness from my journey and fail to fully recover.

1) Can you please tell me what you think about my experience and the concept of Unity as something ultimately negative?

2) Do you think we are all One, connected and bound to return to Unity at the end of the cycle (life)?

3) Some eastern cultures/religions think that it is a bliss to experience the Nirvana (realize that we are the One), why did I felt the exact opposite?

and the thing that I cannot even start to understand is:

4) If we are meant to be united/connected and it is an enjoyable state, why we were separated to begin with, isn't it better to never be separated and just remain in that unified state?

5) If you think we are One, why do you read/write this forum knowing that you are reading/writing to yourself, what can you tell to yourself that you don't already know?

and.... HAPPY NEW YEAR :lol:

 

[chocobeastie]

eh, it is too late to even begin to address this!

HOWEVER, you are not alone! :lol:

Many have been there before you.

This was all a shock to your system so it might look negative to you, but you do not really understand it or comprehend it. But really, just know the only thing that is and ever was is never alone and enjoys itself and always has a good time being itself. It is always alone = all one (see bronners soap!) so that is a prior reality to IT. And it is not really alone anyway because it is always in the process of being different things and creating itself in lots of different ways to experience itself.

a girl told me recently she didn't think these ultimate non-dual states were what they were cracked up to, she missed her friends and family and wanted to be back in the world. So affirm the world and realise that love is real. Where there is love there is not aloneness!

 

[Global]

1) Can you please tell me what you think about my experience and the concept of Unity as something ultimately negative?

That nirvanic experience can be quite powerful. Your reaction to it could have very likely been your own undoing. When the feelings became overwhelming, your resistance as opposed to unconditional surrender ensnared you. You probably weren't ready for this experience. You probably could have used some more practice in surrendering and letting go at lower levels to prepare you for such an intense experience. When I had my first nirvanic experience, it was indeed quite intense and was one of the first times I found myself thinking, this is getting to be a bit much, but because I didn't resist and I just surrendered to the infinite power before me, everything went so smoothly and euphorically. Resistance leads to trauma.

2) Do you think we are all One, connected and bound to return to Unity at the end of the cycle (life)?

Perhaps, but I think when that happens One will just split into a new multiplicity after a while.

4) If we are meant to be united/connected and it is an enjoyable state, why we were separated to begin with, isn't it better to never be separated and just remain in that unified state?

Unity may be enjoyable sure, but it's not very diverse. IMO, the purpose to living is to amass a variety of experiences not attainable in the unitive state.

5) If you think we are One, why do you read/write this forum knowing that you are reading/writing to yourself, what can you tell to yourself that you don't already know?

I think that is the trap to be fallen for: that things have to be one way or another. That anything must exist in either one state or another. I think it's a matter of perspective and processing. Take for example the triangle. The triangle can be perceived analytically as 3 distinct lines, or it can be perceived holistically as a triangle. In a similar manner we can choose to perceive the universe as One big whole. It is One. It is the entirety of everything that composes it. We can also see the universe (and thus ourselves) as distinct and separate components from everything. As the left brain (analytical) dominant as humans tend to be, we tend to see ourselves as distinct, but it's really not an "either or" situation, it's a "both and" situation. We are both distinct components of the universe at the same time as we are One with the universe. These ideas are not contradictory. What appears to be a paradox is merely improper processing.

 

[jamie]

Non-dualism means nothing to me. I get tired of hearing this term thrown around. Same with this whole light vs dark, love vs hate trip people are on. It's just their newest dualistic projection.

Coherance is far more powerful a concept. When a system becomes coherant ideas of dualism or non dualism are irrelevant. This is why a fully coherant low dose experiece can take one way deeper into their own energy than a random chaotic breakthrough. This is also why amazonian shamans sing.

 

[still seeking]

i am everything that i have been taught.
yet i am nothing,that i have learned.

 

[d-T-r]

Concepts like fear only exist within a dualistic paradigm. There is no space for fear to exist within non duality - fear of non duality is by it's very nature a fallacy of dual thought to begin with. The symbol 'Wu" or " mu" sums that up in more detail.

"love is the pursuit of the whole "

In my opinion - we experience duality and polarity in order to remmber the true non dual formless nature of ourselves. The animating force behind every person, animal, plant, star, galaxy. All the same unified force expressed in a multi faceted way. To define unity is to acknowlege separation and to experience perceptive separation is to acknowledge the unfolding return to unity /singularity.

It all boils down to the 'I ' of the experience. Beyond the entire experience , the I remains unchanged. The I before any metaphysical decoration. The perceiver of the old I after it takes a conciousness--hammering can have a hard time finding framework for the experience after it has been permanately re-shaped , or even de-shaped.

Sometimes we learn more when we have our ego mind gently dissolved , and sometimes more when it is intensely shattered. Finding the truth and beauty in the latter can be hard but accept it's silent challenge and see it all As a blessing in disguise . An invitation to yourself to uncover more of your self and an invitation to take stock of what builds the self and what thoughts do for ( or against) it.

Universe sometimes has a very tough - love approach to it's curriculum , but at the end of the day it's all love and it's all things .

Integration is such a key and sometimes understated aspect of any inner and outer space exploration. As long as you can identify and work with the tthings you have learnt from it, as apposed to just the psychological trauma,then you're never really at loss...easier said than done of course but the lessons learnt and humility gained will always bloom , if not straight away then at some point sooner or later.

P.S

Check this thread for a more authentic ( less dual ) perecption on duality/non duality.

The Great Way Is Not Difficult - Jianzhi Sengcan - Philosophy - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Also some Lao -tzu /Tao te Ching may be helpful.

 

[still seeking]

the I,
you me everything,will always be tempted by the false.
you will fit in if you obey,on this physical plane.
oh how much we want to fit in and be a part of something.

the i is you.
a incredible being of energy.
you wil love,hate ,cry and laugh.

you are everything but nothing.

 

[amazingino]

Some interesting thoughts here, thank you all for your kind input.

Fear is of course the representation of duality, I am afraid in this dual state of the non-dual lonely state, but I guess I have no choice but to wait and see what happens.

The thing is that everything seems a bit fake now, in a sense that I am not totally sure that I am really talking to someone here even if I have the impression that words I read are truly coming from outside of my consciousness. It is like some kind of game where I am probably the only player and you are bots And I have to play game of life and wait the end to realize that I was alone all along and shuffle cards (time&space) and start again.

What is your proof that you are actually not alone evolving in space/time you crafted yourself?

It kinda feels like there is no objective truth as all we have is our subjective experience, no way to know that anything exists at all except in our own consciousness, right? We just kind of construct all our ideas starting from the postulate that we are not alone, but does anyone question that postulate at all?

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

only player and you are bots And I have to play game of life and wait the end to realize that I was alone all along and shuffle cards

i am the only player and you are the bots.

we should have a solipsism convention, and we can all debate who truly exists, and who are figments of who's imagination

It kinda feels like there is no objective truth as all we have is our subjective experience, no way to know that anything exists at all except in our own consciousness, right? We just kind of construct all our ideas starting from the postulate that we are not alone, but does anyone question that postulate at all?

mutual subjectivity rather than objectivity.. i feel you.

i think it not unreasonable to assume that all of this reality is our(true)self "playing the part" (as it were) of reality.

but to postulate as to whether other beings are truly conscious seems silly to me (especially since we can never prove anything either way).

If you think we are One, why do you read/write this forum knowing that you are reading/writing to yourself, what can you tell to yourself that you don't already know?

i have learned things i didn't already know from others (or myself), why would this be different in reverse?

or: because the other me is pretending not to already know, and that is his part of the game.


EDIT:

i can relate to this experience a lot because i had a mushroom trip where anything i would think of would ultimately lead to this conclusion (no matter how unrelated it seemed at first).

i felt like all thought was like a series of looping maze paths that all led back to the same conclusion. it was my suffering i could not forget. shortly after i was a serpent and i boros'd my ouro (this tail tastes good!)


i am still not entirely sure what to make of it, but i now consider it just an interesting philosophical speculation


but should it be true, i still feel no sorrow, for if this is all one illusion created by me to entertain me and think others exist, i did a damn good job, and this illusion is more than sufficiently entertaining (and other people can be assholes :d ).

i am having fun just looking to see what is up "my" own sleeve.

also alan watts

God likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing outside God, he has no one but himself to play with. But he gets over this difficulty by pretending that he is not himself. This is his way of hiding from himself. He pretends that he is you and I and all the people in the world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the stars. In this way he has strange and wonderful adventures, some of which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams...
When the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember that we are all one single Self--the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever.

Now, once we have this game there are two different things, but they are really the same. The Brahma is what is basic, but the Brahma manifests itself in what are called the dvanva, and that makes the pairs of opposites (duality). Dva is the Sanskrit word for "two," which becomes duo in Latin and dual in English. Two is the basis, and you cannot go behind two, because one has an opposite: the opposite of one is none. Now, what is in common between one and none? No one can say---you can't mention it. It is called Brahma, and it is sometimes called om. Yet you can't really think of what is in common between black and white, because there is obviously a conspiracy between black and white; they are always found together. Tweedledee and Tweedledum agreed to have a battle, and there is always an agreement underlying this difference; that is what we call implicit, but the difference is explicit. So, the first step in what you might call the hide phase of the game of hide-and-seek is to lose sight of the implicit unity between black and white, yes and no, and existence and nonexistence.

Losing sight of the fundamental unity is called Maya, a word that means many things, but primarily it means "creative power," or "magic," and also "illusion"---the illusion that the opposites are really separate from each other. Once you think that they are really separate from each other you can have a very thrilling game. The game is, "Oh dear, black might win," or "We must be quite sure that white wins." Now, which one ought to win? When you look at this page, you would say the reality here is the writing; that is what is significant. Yet there are many other patterns that you can find in which you are undecided in your mind as to which is the figure and which is the background. It could be a black design on a white sheet, or it could be a white design on a black sheet, and the universe is very much like that. Space, or the background of things, is not nothing, but people tend to be deceived about this. If I draw a circle, most people, when asked what I have drawn, will say that I have drawn a circle, or a disk, or a ball. Very few people will ever suggest that I have drawn a hole in a wall, because people think of the inside first, rather than thinking of the outside. But actually these two sides go together---you cannot have what is "in here" unless you have what is "out there."

 

[amazingino]

Well at least your other self just learned a new word: solipsism

So now, does Wikipedia exist? Let's check

 

[Global]

Some interesting thoughts here, thank you all for your kind input.

Fear is of course the representation of duality, I am afraid in this dual state of the non-dual lonely state, but I guess I have no choice but to wait and see what happens.

The thing is that everything seems a bit fake now, in a sense that I am not totally sure that I am really talking to someone here even if I have the impression that words I read are truly coming from outside of my consciousness. It is like some kind of game where I am probably the only player and you are bots And I have to play game of life and wait the end to realize that I was alone all along and shuffle cards (time&space) and start again.

What is your proof that you are actually not alone evolving in space/time you crafted yourself?

It kinda feels like there is no objective truth as all we have is our subjective experience, no way to know that anything exists at all except in our own consciousness, right? We just kind of construct all our ideas starting from the postulate that we are not alone, but does anyone question that postulate at all?

There are a handful of solipsism threads here at the Nexus, and you can feel free to search those to see some of the in-depth conversations we've had about the matter, but something I would just like to add here is, let's assume it's true, and you are the "only player". If so, so what? You can't be conscious of your creation, or you would know everything about it along with all the rules. So this part of yourself that has created the universe of which you're the only player is a part of yourself that remains perpetually unconscious to you. In this experience here, you're not alone. You can have beautiful (and terrible) interactions with human beings that allow you to feel emotion and experience life. To get caught up in the anxiety of being the only one (in what is IMO an unlikely scenario) is to let your fears get the best of you.

 

[Inner Paths]

This is a very interesting topic, I have spent some good time pondering our reality and the solipsistic approach. It has caused me some existential anxiety pondering it but I feel that I am coming to terms with it in a much better light these days.

If so, so what?

I think that is a great attitude to this conundrum and to life in general too. Having dealt with some anxiety issues in my mid twenties I came to know the "If so, so what" mantra rather well and it helped me in getting past some obstacles and gave me a greater view on life in general.

As far as solipsism is concerned, in my consensus reality I am currently experiencing, duality is a big part of that. All is separate! But joined together also, like I can perceive a tiny thread linking it all together (thanks to my meager psychedelic use). The great conundrum! The human experience for most people is as a separate identity for the majority of our waking lives, the only time we might journey into unity is through psychedelics, meditation, mystical and religious experience and sometimes through dream states.

Neither is invalid when looked through the lens of experience and perception. Whatever you perceive or experience in the hear and now, be it complete union with the oneness/godhead or separation/duality as a human in the rat race of consensus reality, is equally real and valid in that instant of time that is the now. It's trying to make the two opposing ideas sit well together in the human mind that is hard and that can cause fear and anxiety, but that is the eternal paradox that has been created and neither is necessarily right or wrong, it just is, and it is also beautiful

 

[chocobeastie]

Alan Watts wrote:

"When the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember that we are all one single Self--the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever."

I always like this experience, I find it very liberating: but it doesn't change the state of the illusion though!

 

[d-T-r]

Good call on posting some Alan watts.
All of our subjective existences and perceptions formulate the objective existence/over soul. but an objective state cannot be aware of it's self if it has no "other" or state of separation to compare with. this doesn't mean it's already the end credits but rather a free for all of potentiality influenced by inevabilities and probabilities. Checkpoints of refinement and cascading thresholds of perceptual awareness. In truth much of it is inneffable as words and language are dualistic in their very nature.

A good cure for any " existentialist anxiety" is remembering the compassionate side of existing. We all live and learn within companionship , social interaction , on biological and metaphysical levels. It's through out inseparable interaction with the "external" that we begin to grasp the layers of the internal and it's intrinsic relation to the outer. Microcosm -macrocosm etc

To exist within a vibrational state or density is to acknowledge ever denser states and ever increasing frequencies of light. (less dense) We're continually surfing the flux and space between the inbetween. expanding upon what we have learnt.

In short, the rationalists within us can only perceive as far as we can order and verbalize our thoughts ,but there are layers of intuituve understsnding and unbound awareness far beyond what we can currently communicate with words,pictures, formulas etc

I have gradually come to realize that more peace can be found in accepting and embracing the mystery as apposed to trying to nail down the precise blueprint of it. Remember that rationality is an entirely irrational concept to begin with.

And if that isn't enough , what better way to spend your time of existence than helping "others" realize the true depth and scope of their own existence. You either see them as bots , or untapped memories,emotions and experiences of your /our
collectively higher self.

Important for us to not let the obsessive ,logic-dependent rationalist suck the experimentalist side of existence.beyond the shapeshifting paradox , lays higher ground and uncharted fertility of potentiality. Some rules/laws are set in place but many are yet to be identified let alond utilized.

Helping others will always be the humblest way to honour the realization we're all reflections of each other.

 

[amazingino]

Beautiful words, whatever the problem is, the Love is the answer and compassion the Way to follow. We just have to accept our "destiny" and let go, not always easy to do, but the only possible exit.
I trust in loving God so that helps me overcome my fears, but I still have some residual anxiety I need to release.

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts & experiences, it was very helpful, I learned some new ideas and rediscovered others.

Peace & Love

 

[Rising Spirit]

1) Can you please tell me what you think about my experience and the concept of Unity as something ultimately negative?

Honestly, we have all been in your shoes. By that I mean having said "reality" suddenly ripped away from your isolated human grasp... is a very frightening, soul shaking experience! But try to understand that what is "negative" about such an interphase is this, our ego is shattered into so much cosmic dust. Gulp!!! :shock:

Our frail constructs of reality are most easily disturbed by the force and effulgence of Sacred Medicines (of all kinds). DMT is perhaps the most potent of these catalysts of conceptual dissolution? Who knows... many paths lead to this same unified vacuum and wholly engulfing state of mind.

2) Do you think we are all One, connected and bound to return to Unity at the end of the cycle (life)?

I have come to "think" that we are always one... and that we will surely become what we have always been (and will always be). Cycles of understanding and reasonable conclusions are often no more than illusory constructs of our conceptual reflections, those born of our grasp of the endless moment of now, the eternal point of happening within the fulcrum of this co-dreamed time-space-continuum. we must always question our finite perceptions and ardently seek the meaning within the flowing current of events.

3) Some eastern cultures/religions think that it is a bliss to experience the Nirvana (realize that we are the One), why did I felt the exact opposite?

To be seemingly blunt and simultaneously, compassionate to the transformation you are undergoing, I would say you confuse your external self-orientation with your own internal core of being. And just who wouldn't, given the gravity of our mental paradigm? We walk within a room full of metaphorical mirrors.

Is not each step on this enigmatic journey an eternity in the making? Reality is within you/I/we/us, our very blueprint and Divine fulcrum. This plane of being is not outside of ourselves (yourself-myself) or some projection of transient mind stuff. The Void is immensely impersonal and all... but do take solace in our collective community. I emphatically suggest that the Omnisciently undivided, self-conscious-awareness-being within the many is a sympathetic chord we all share.

and the thing that I cannot even start to understand is

4) If we are meant to be united/connected and it is an enjoyable state, why we were separated to begin with, isn't it better to never be separated and just remain in that unified state?

OK... from everything I have experienced directly, contemplated upon fervently and repeatedly forced myself to consider... we are never separate aspects of the whole. We are always existent within the Unified field. We are no different then the Godly cause which initiated our dream of sentience. Existence is indivisible and wholly interconnected to one law... this law is most Sacred and to touch it's insubstantial quintessence, is to be wholly immersed within it's vibrationless void. 8)

I have found that there is an immeasurably great joy found in the remembrance of this holiest of truths. For is it not most lovely and euphoric, the merging inside of the infinite? I am not teasing you, my friend, I am very serious and do encourage you to move freely within this Unified field of Being.

5) If you think we are One, why do you read/write this forum knowing that you are reading/writing to yourself, what can you tell to yourself that you don't already know?

I do visit here myself... for the sake of reciprocity and communion with my other twin selves and materially encoded, soul reflections. So, I can really speak for no others. I want to resonate through communication, with like-spirited souls.

I'll be brutally direct with you, amazingino, as I respect your honesty and love your candor. I suspect that you are earnest in your proclamations, for much of what you are finding so difficult is likely one day become the initiation of much extreme joyful bliss. I has for me. Time alone will count the measure of this assumption?

Well, I can only speak from my own vantage point, which is blooming to become more and more inspiring. Your very being witnesses the Supreme vortex of oneness, deep within your dreamscape of awakening. You will either get used to the emptiness of the eternal force... or you will run away as fast as your feet will carry you. What do you want? You manifest your own place in this living moment.... this stillness inside of the thundering force of creation.

IMO, it's always best to set aside our fear and anxiety and embrace the unbroken current,the undivided reality behind the appearances we perceive. We are inarguably, all one process of consciousness-awareness-being. I would go even further and state that we are but one singular being, watching from behind the limitless forms and variations of The Omniself, experiencing myriad realities as we individually dream (and I do mean weaving dreamscapes within our individualized cognition, as in falling into the romance and delirium of our ever-changing illusions of what is happening).

I have come to feel that we are each and all of us Brahman, unbroken and forevermore undivided. But awakening is not easy or paved with luxuries. Seize this Sacred gift, dear fellow traveler, and attune willingly to the singular vortex of the infinite Godhead (your own source of being). :thumb_up:

and.... HAPPY NEW YEAR :d

Have a bright new perspective of your role in this voyage of awakening. Open your heart as wide as the sky and listen to your own inner voice. Even when all is dissolved within the Unity, your are the witness to all of this phenomenal stuff. And I agree with many of the fine comments left for your contemplation. Love is the harbinger of the Light, which will flood you with the pure bliss of spiritual boundlessness.

 

[hixidom]

What I felt was an immense loneliness of the Unity, disturbing, sad, unbearable loneliness... I felt like the Unity split itself into multiplicity in order to avoid being alone!

Holy crap! I had this EXACT feeling/idea before while on LSD, and it has been a theme of my trips ever since. We should hang out sometime.

Ultimately, my realization that we are all merely projections/reflections of the one unitary consciousness has allowed me to love more fully not only my friends and family, but also strangers whom I recognize as sharing my soul. I find it very poetic that all hate and love are simply manifestations of self-hate and self-love (respectively).

Good luck to you.

I leave you with a passage from an essay I wrote on this unitary consciousness long ago:

The most obvious question regarding the nature of Pan seemed to be why such a consciousness would manifest as a plurality in the first place. What purpose is served by being able to gaze at one’s self. Perhaps the purpose is self-analysis aimed at better understanding of the self, or perhaps the purpose is spiritual evolution via the self-interaction of the unitary self. Perhaps the nature of consciousness is the attempted recognition of some other being. As with the scenario posed above, perhaps a single consciousness can find a way to talk to itself, or a way to look at itself. After all, how else can self-analysis occur? Perhaps the nature of consciousness dictates its consisting of a dualism of lesser consciousnesses. Thus reality's being a consciousness fractal seems almost provable if we can prove that the nature of consciousness avails itself of a dualism of lesser consciousnesses. On the other hand, perhaps this division of the unitary consciousness is not wanted. Perhaps this division is a sort of fragmentation, like a mirror shattered upon being turned in on itself. Perhaps humanity is a disease propagating through this consciousness and subsequently dividing it.

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

cool passage, hix.

you know where i can find the complete essay?

 

[hixidom]

It's here, but I warn you that the structure, reasoning, and presentation are lacking (at least by my present standards). If you read it, consider it no more than a journal entry.

 

[nen888]

..Non-dualism can be used to justify the most appalling of acts by humans..!

it is very easy to parrot about as a concept without really looking at the detachment of such a position..

i have no problem with out and out Dualism..

the next guru says to me 'you create you're reality, there is no good and bad, it's all a dream.."
i will punch in the face and then piss on..:roll:

'it's all you!, mate' i will say..
.