• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

First Aid For Alkaloid Overload

Migrated topic.
Jorkest

Jorkest

Moderator
Moderator
here is a procedure taken from The Herbal Medicine-Makers Handbook by James Green

Plants ordinarily used by herbalists are not poisonous. Yet, as is well known, some plants components are extremely poisonous. As health allies and caretakers, it is practical to remember that in cases of alkaloid poisoning and other kinds of poisoning, the initial treatment consists in chemical destruction or obstruction and subsequent evacuation of the poison. While each alkaloid, when taken by mouth, will require its own special antidote (see Merck Index), if any is known, the following general procedure and drugs may be used:

General Procedure​

1. Remove noxious agent from contact with patient.

2. Keep patient warm and lying down. An unconscious or near-conscious person should be placed on their abdomen, head turned to one side and tongue pulled forward.

3. Give 2-4 glasses of water immediately (milk can be substituted).

4. Induce vomiting immediately by giving 1-2 tablespoons of salt in a full glass of warm water, or a tablespoon of mustard in warm water, or have the patient place index finger far back on tongue and stroke from side to side. Vomiting should also be induced after each dose of the antidote. Caution: With strychnine, strongly caustic, or corrosive poisons, DO NOT induce vomiting.

5. Give patient the Universal Antidote (see below).

6. Get medical attention as soon as possible. Do not interrupt the above procedures.

Universal Antidote​

If the nature of the poison is unknown, give repeated doses of 1/2 ounces (15Gm) of the following mixture or a like mixture, stirred in half a glass of warm water.

-Pulverized, activated charcoal (burnt toast as an alternative) - 2 parts

-Tannic acid (strong black tea as an alternative) - 1 part

-Magnesium oxide (milk of magnesia as an alternative) - 1 part

Never give oils, fats, or alcohol.

Tannin (tannic acid powder or common black tea) precipitates most alkaloids (as well as certain toxic glycosides and many metals) But remember that this precipitate redissolves in the acidic gastric juice, so it should be given with alkaline substances, such as sodium carbonate or bicarbonate, milk of magnesia, or the like, which neutralize acids, and then they should be removed by vomiting or with a stomach pump.

Iodine in the form of Tincture of Iodine diluted, or Lugol's Solution (iodine with potassium iodide) may be given as a general antidote. But this precipitate redissolves in alkaline juices in the intestines, so it must be hurried through the bowels by means of a purgative if it is too late to remove it by vomiting or a stomach pump.

Activated animal charcoal (or vegetable charcoal as an alternative) absorbs and obstructs alkaloids. This may be used if quickly removed from the stomach before re-solution takes place.
Click to expand...

so there you have it...stay safe pioneers.
 
The only ingredient of value in the Universal Antidote is the activated charcoal.It can be very dangerous to administer, say, salty water to indue vomiting especially if the victim is drowsy as they may do a Jimi Hendrix with the puke going on the lungs.
 
Hmmmmmmmmm

Me thinks these instructions are a very baaaaaaaaaaad idea.


lol

I dont want to get into what I do for a living but lets just say that its in the emergency health care field. I do allot of advanced life support intervention in the field.

Please allow me to share a few thoughts and comments concerning the above general procedures for alkaloid overload.

If a person is suspected of overdosing on any alkoloid that can cause death from overdose you should call 911 immediately.

1. if possible, positively identify the noxious agent the patient has overdosed on and give this information to the 911 operator.

2. keep the patient on their back with the head tilted back so that the airway of the patient remains open. If the patient vomits turn the patients head to the side and assist the patient in removing the vomitus from the mouth. Dont worry about what position the patients tounge is in. It is physically impossible to swallow or choke your tounge. this is a wives tale. If you believe the tounge is inpinging on the airway of the patient making it difficuly to breath, tilt the patients head back and push down on the patients jaw.

3. if the patient is concious and has a gag reflex then it is ok to give them water or milk. The way to test a persons gag reflex is to apply pressure to the back of their tounge. They will gag when you do this. If a person is speaking to you this person has a gag reflex. If a person does not have a gag they can not swallow so giving them something to drink can endanger their life. If the person has a dereased level of conciousness or is unconcious do not under ANY circumstances attempt to give them anything orally. This is a great way to cause a person to aspirate or choke and suffocate.

If you have ingested an illegal substance and you are dying from an overdose, problems with law enforcement are the least of your worries.

If a person is suspected of overdosing on any alkoloid that can cause death from overdose you should call 911 immediately.

Paramedics who resopond to this sort of incident are, in most cases, only minutes away and are trained and equiped to handle these sort of emergencies.

If your in the USA, do not call Poison Control, they are just going to tell you to call 911.

If a person is suspected of overdosing on any alkoloid that can cause death from overdose you should call 911 immediately.
 
corpus callosum said:
The only ingredient of value in the Universal Antidote is the activated charcoal.It can be very dangerous to administer, say, salty water to indue vomiting especially if the victim is drowsy as they may do a Jimi Hendrix with the puke going on the lungs.
Click to expand...

Ice House said:
Hmmmmmmmmm

Me thinks these instructions are a very baaaaaaaaaaad idea.


lol

I dont want to get into what I do for a living but lets just say that its in the emergency health care field. I do allot of advanced life support intervention in the field.

Please allow me to share a few thoughts and comments concerning the above general procedures for alkaloid overload.

If a person is suspected of overdosing on any alkoloid that can cause death from overdose you should call 911 immediately.

1. if possible, positively identify the noxious agent the patient has overdosed on and give this information to the 911 operator.

2. keep the patient on their back with the head tilted back so that the airway of the patient remains open. If the patient vomits turn the patients head to the side and assist the patient in removing the vomitus from the mouth. Dont worry about what position the patients tounge is in. It is physically impossible to swallow or choke your tounge. this is a wives tale. If you believe the tounge is inpinging on the airway of the patient making it difficuly to breath, tilt the patients head back and push down on the patients jaw.

3. if the patient is concious and has a gag reflex then it is ok to give them water or milk. The way to test a persons gag reflex is to apply pressure to the back of their tounge. They will gag when you do this. If a person does not have a gag they can not swallow. If a person is speaking to you this person has a gag reflex. If the person has a dereased level of conciousness do not under ANY circumstances attempt to give them anything orally. This is a great way to cause a person to aspirate or choke and suffocate.

If you have ingestedan illegal substance and you are dying from an overdose, problems with law enforcement are the least of your worries.

If a person is suspected of overdosing on any alkoloid that can cause death from overdose you should call 911 immediately.

Paramedics who resopond to this sort of incident are, in most cases, only minutes away and are trained and equiped to handle these sort of emergencies.

If your in the USA, do not call Poison Control, they are just going to tell you to call 911.

If a person is suspected of overdosing on any alkoloid that can cause death from overdose you should call 911 immediately.
Click to expand...

Let just quote that to show it again and again...


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
Fine, but all I really see in this thread is, if you think someone might die, call 911. That's obvious. But how to correctly, or at least make an educated decision if someone might have overdosed on alkaloids? A lot of people who take dmt, and other psychedelics think they're dying and aren't. Sometimes even people who smoke weed, or take amanitas think they're dying.
 
Apoc said:
Fine, but all I really see in this thread is, if you think someone might die, call 911. That's obvious. But how to correctly, or at least make an educated decision if someone might have overdosed on alkaloids? A lot of people who take dmt, and other psychedelics think they're dying and aren't. Sometimes even people who smoke weed, or take amanitas think they're dying.
Click to expand...

I dont know for sure if there is a 100% correct answer here. I myself have gone to the ER before because I took an extremely heavy dosage of THH and Psilocybe Cubensis and Psilocybe Cyanescens. I convinced my wife I was dying. I thought I was. I wish somebody had been with me that knew what was going on. I didnt need to go to the hospital. I was hooked up to a heart monitor my blood oxygen saturation was normal my heart was normal. I though I couldnt breath and that my heart was going to stop.

There is no doubt that 1 in ? people could possibly just have an allergic reaction of some sort and get very sick and die from certain alkaloids discussed on these forums, ie harmalas, datura. There is nothing anyone can do about that. I imagine the odds are 1 in a million or more, but the reality is, that could happen.

Now, lets take the average person who has an average or normal response to dosing the alkaloids discussed on these forums. It is extremely important, IMHO, for a person making a responsible decision to step off into the world of MAOI and psychedelics to research and find out what the dosing parameters are for the alkaloid that you are going to take. Learn what the median lethal dose of the substance, aka LD 50, is and know what the known or tested mg per kg dosage is for a normal person for the desired level that you are looking for. Anyone who is sitting for you should also know what those numbers are.

You should NEVER ingest anything into your body that is going to alter your mental status without knowing all the important pertinent information about that substance.

I always remind myself just after dosing that the dose I took is a safe dose and I fully brief myself and others with me on the expected effects.

But how to correctly, or at least make an educated decision if someone might have overdosed on alkaloids?
Click to expand...

If you are witness or if you are involved with a person who appears to be having an adverse reaction, the decision should be based first on some known factors-

NOT in order of importance

1. The weight of the person who took the substance

2. The ammount and type of the substance the person took. did the substance come from a confirmed/reliable source?

3. Are the mental effects that the person is experiencing consistent with the expected or normal effects. Experiencing the sensation of dying, (mentally), is very common with psychedelics.

4. Is the person demonstrating physical effects consistent with the substance taken. Experiencing or exibiting the symptoms of dying, (physically), is very un-common with psychedelics. Extreme drop in blood pressure may be unusual as would a much lower than normal heart rate as would a decrease in respiratory drive. Is the person responsive to stimuli? ie voice or touch. Its important to know what the effects, both mental and physical, of any conciousness altering substance you are ingesting as should anyone taking on the rsponsibility of sitter.

5. How long ago did the person take the substance. did these effects just start or have they been going on way beyond the normal expected duration. What is the normal average duration?

6. What is the experience level of the person who took the substance.

7. Does the person have other medical issues that could be a contributing factor,ie, is the person a diabetic, is there a heart condition, does the person have allergies?


If you dont know what the person took or how much they took then you need to do some basic evaluation of the person and make a decision as to weather or not this person needs medical attention.

Dose the person have an airway? are they breathing? Is their heart beating? Are they concious? Answer no to any of these and call 911.




But how to correctly, or at least make an educated decision if someone might have overdosed on alkaloids?
Click to expand...

Want to be able to make an educated decision?

EDUCATE YOURSELF AND YOUR SITTER!!!!

Are the effects, physically and mentally, you are whitnessing consistent with the substance taken?

Know what you are doing. Study, research, learn everything you can about what you are doing and make sure the sitter is knowlegable also. The information you need is available. Find it!

IMHO the substances discussed in these forums are to be respected, they are not party drugs.
 
good answers. I agree, the combination of education and safety are important. Education being the sitters responsibility to know at least the general effects of the drug, and be able to determine if a person is actually dying (breathing obstructed, skin turning colors). I've seen myself on dmt and it can look unusual. Sometimes on aya, I go in to what I call a "death stare" where I appear to stop all movement, my body completely relaxes, and I just stare with my eyes open breathing very shallow. And most people who take aya will get tremors, so we can't have people calling 911 for every aya user who starts shaking.

It's also important not to waste emergency services for non emergencies. Responsible use includes knowing how to safely use the substances, and knowing at what point to call for help. Just trying to encourage responsible use of substances for those who choose to use them. I know I did plenty of research before I took anything. A couple months worth of reading about dmt and ayahuasca.
 
Back
Top Bottom