Freebase Caapi Alk Dosage

[BananaForeskin]

Alright, now that Gibran's extraction tek is out there (and is so easy), I have a question--

What is considered a good freebase alkaloid dose? Not for pharma, per se, but in order to have a strong caapi-only journey. I did the extraction on 100g of caapi, which I would have drunk traditionally otherwise. I got about ~2.25g of alkaloids, would this be a lot to take in a glass of OJ? If I understand correctly, the common pharma harmala dose is only 225mg.

I suppose this is not just a plea for dosage help, but also a question about how the caapi extraction tek might alter the current perception of oral harmala dosages. I'm assuming that, unlike a manske, whatever undiscovered alkaloids there may be in caapi may be present in this form of extraction. Also, I remember hearing the theory that higher tannin content can negatively affect potency due to tannin binding. Anyone's thoughts?

 

[gibran2]

I've used 250mg with only slight, intermittent queasiness.

 

[prottel]

I got about ~2.25g of alkaloids, would this be a lot to take in a glass of OJ?

I would not advice going for this dose. It would be heavy to say the least. A good caapi harmala dose by itself, i'd say is 400mg+. With repeated use, this dose can be upped.

 

[BananaForeskin]

I got about ~2.25g of alkaloids, would this be a lot to take in a glass of OJ?

I would not advice going for this dose. It would be heavy to say the least. A good caapi harmala dose by itself, i'd say is 400mg+. With repeated use, this dose can be upped.

However, from the sound of it, 400mg of harmalas is a much stronger experience than 18g of caapi, which is how much vine it took to get 400mg of harmalas doing gibran's extraction. Ergo, doing an extraction on caapi is much more efficient than drinking the equivalent amount of brew, correct?

 

[prottel]

I got about ~2.25g of alkaloids, would this be a lot to take in a glass of OJ?

I would not advice going for this dose. It would be heavy to say the least. A good caapi harmala dose by itself, i'd say is 400mg+. With repeated use, this dose can be upped.

However, from the sound of it, 400mg of harmalas is a much stronger experience than 18g of caapi, which is how much vine it took to get 400mg of harmalas doing gibran's extraction. Ergo, doing an extraction on caapi is much more efficient than drinking the equivalent amount of brew, correct?

Well, to me it sounds like you guys got some super potent caapi.

 

[gibran2]

Well, to me it sounds like you guys got some super potent caapi.

From what I’ve read, the more mature the vine, the more potent it is.

Some caapi seems to be sold as sticks and twigs. The caapi I most recently bought was one solid piece (200g). I did an extraction on 50g, and got an astounding 3.4% yield – that’s 1.7g alkaloids from 50g vine!

 

[prottel]

If you ingest 50 g of that vine, and it contains 1.7 gram of harmalas, i'd say you would be laying in bed for 12+ hours at least. In some rare cases I hear of people having extraordinary strong experiences from 40-50 gram of vine. Are you sure there are no heavy contaminants in it? I'd sure love to try some of that vine, as with that percentage of actives would make it as potent as rue.

 

[gibran2]

If you ingest 50 g of that vine, and it contains 1.7 gram of harmalas, i'd say you would be laying in bed for 12+ hours at least. In some rare cases I hear of people having extraordinary strong experiences from 40-50 gram of vine. Are you sure there are no heavy contaminants in it? I'd sure love to try some of that vine, as with that percentage of actives would make it as potent as rue.

There are definitely no insoluble impurities. The only possible impurities would be salts formed during the final freebasing (sodium acetate) and excess sodium hydroxide, but I rinsed the freebase 4 times, removing about 80% of the liquid each time, so at most there should be only a few milligrams of soluble impurities, and based on pH no remaining NaOH. It’s just very strong caapi.

My first batch of caapi yielded about 2.2% alkaloids, and I had 15g of conventional caapi-only brew for my first aya experience. It was very intense physically – felt like I got an instantaneous case of the flu, and I estimate I consumed about 325mg alkaloids. I can’t imagine what 1.7g would do.

 

[jamie]

honeslty I find that yield very hard to believe..I have drank alot of ayahuasca and brewed lots of differnt vine..and dosed sublingual harmalas..and those findings dont seem consistant with what I have experienced at all...I havent tried the tek though myself so who knows..

....now over a gram of harmalas in 50g of vine sounds like a GIANT stretch...Im not saying its impossible..just really really really hard to believe.

 

[gibran2]

honeslty I find that yield very hard to believe..I have drank alot of ayahuasca and brewed lots of differnt vine..and dosed sublingual harmalas..and those findings dont seem consistant with what I have experienced at all...I havent tried the tek though myself so who knows..

....now over a gram of harmalas in 50g of vine sounds like a GIANT stretch...Im not saying its impossible..just really really really hard to believe.

I encourage others to validate this. I too was surprised by the yield. My previous extractions have all yielded about 2%, which I thought was very high itself. A yield of 3.4% from caapi seems incredibly high, but I don’t see what could have boosted the yield other than very strong caapi.

(This was black caapi from Vegetalista Botanicals.)

 

[BananaForeskin]

I too working with very mature red caapi, I had a kilo consisting of 4 pieces of vine.

The thing is, I wasn't TOTALLY conked out the time I drank 60g of this vine. I couldn't really walk or move effectively, but after about four hours I was fine. I was surprised by the yield too... hence questioning whether or not traditionally brewed aya is perhaps, for whatever reason, not as effective a route of administration.

I will try an evening with my alkaloids sometime soon and report back on the potency.

 

[gibran2]

I too working with very mature red caapi, I had a kilo consisting of 4 pieces of vine.

The thing is, I wasn't TOTALLY conked out the time I drank 60g of this vine. I couldn't really walk or move effectively, but after about four hours I was fine. I was surprised by the yield too... hence questioning whether or not traditionally brewed aya is perhaps, for whatever reason, not as effective a route of administration.

I will try an evening with my alkaloids sometime soon and report back on the potency.

It makes me wonder if there’s something in the vine that buffers, slows, or altogether prevents some of the alkaloids from being absorbed? If this “something” isn’t itself an alkaloid and is removed during the extraction, then this might explain it? I don’t know…

However, 15g of my first batch of vine (yield was about 2.2%) when consumed as traditional brew made me quite ill. I can’t imagine drinking 50g worth of that brew!

I also intend on testing my latest batch of extracted alkaloids – 175mg w/ 100mg DMT. If the alkaloids aren’t “full strength”, then I shouldn’t have full inhibition. Will report back soon.

 

[jamie]

ok..feeling sick from caapi and harmalas does not necessarily equate to a high dose..if you did consume 325mg of harmalas you most likely would have also tripped HARD as well as been sick....

I have been very sick and dizzy one time from only 10g of vine, I couldnt even walk right for an hour or 2..and this was when I first started to drink..but now I am drinking 50+ grams every time..

So when you drank that 15 grams..was it also entheogenic?..did you have visions when you lay there..at 325mg of harmalas im sure I would be out of my body flying through dreamlike landscapes...a larger dose of harmalas (which 325mg is) will be quite visionary for me at least, comnplete with meaningful vision sequences similar to what I read about Iboga..

 

[rOm]

True 350 mg harmalas are by themselves visionary as well as the usual body discomfort.
Extracting alcs is a different experiment from brewed caapi but the sickness is to me about the same minus la purga.

 

[gibran2]

ok..feeling sick from caapi and harmalas does not necessarily equate to a high dose..if you did consume 325mg of harmalas you most likely would have also tripped HARD as well as been sick....

I have been very sick and dizzy one time from only 10g of vine, I couldnt even walk right for an hour or 2..and this was when I first started to drink..but now I am drinking 50+ grams every time..

So when you drank that 15 grams..was it also entheogenic?..did you have visions when you lay there..at 325mg of harmalas im sure I would be out of my body flying through dreamlike landscapes...a larger dose of harmalas (which 325mg is) will be quite visionary for me at least, comnplete with meaningful vision sequences similar to what I read about Iboga..

Here’s a quote from my “first aya” thread:

I sat back, and after about 20 minutes or so, I felt some mild “head” effects. After another 20 minutes, I suddenly felt very ill. Cold sweat, spinning head, weakness all over, loss of coordination. It was awful – I felt poisoned. Surprisingly, I didn’t feel any nausea. Maybe a bit of stomach discomfort.

I went to lie down, and this seemed to help. I didn’t have any visuals, but I did feel very “absorbed” by my thoughts. About 2 hours after I first drank, most of the sick feelings abruptly ended. Relief!

It’s now about 3.5 hours post-drink, and I’m still feeling a bit “queasy”.

So you’re saying that this sounds like an experience from less than 300mg? How much less? I always thought that the minimum harmalas needed for full inhibition was somewhere around 150mg, and that a typical dose for full inhibition was around 200-250mg (lower when harmaline is present). Is this not correct? And are you saying that to go from full inhibition at 250mg to full caapi-only visionary state only takes an additional 50mg?

For my first pharma experience I used 225mg of caapi extracted alkaloids (and about 50mg DMT), and had a very visual experience that lasted nearly 7 hours! Surely if the alkaloids were “weak” due to unknown contamination, I wouldn’t have had such an experience?

The reason for all of my questioning is because I’d like to know what’s going on with the A/B extraction of caapi alkaloids. Is it actually pulling just alkaloids? Is there something else being pulled? Could calcium hydroxide or other relatively insoluble salts be formed, and if it was calcium hydroxide wouldn’t it effect the pH? Are there even any calcium salts in caapi in significant quantities?

I’ve also done the A/B on rue, and got just over 7% yield, which also seems very high. But on the other hand, a typical dose of rue is 2-4g, which would equal 140-280mg alkaloids at 7%, and this seems in line with my extraction results and with typical harmala doses.

Maybe I’ll buy some cheap yellow caapi and do an extraction. It could be possible that the varieties of caapi commonly used for ayahuasca (at least among forum members) are generally weaker. Another alternative – if more experienced aya drinkers brew up some black caapi from vegetalista botanicals, drink about 50g worth, and then report back.

 

[fraterS.O.L.]

When I did this tek my yeild came in at just a little ove 1% from some of mayas white caapi, pre-shredded. So probably you got strong vine. That and whole vine from a mature plant, like the one pictured above, probably makes it even more potent. I'm not an expert on this subject so all I have to go on is the smaller yeild of my batch of vine. 3.4%, I wish...

EDIT: I did 4 hour boils btw. When i did 4 30min boils my yeilds were considerably less.

 

[BananaForeskin]

I wasn't tripping hard on the first brew I drank, that's why I extracted from 100g of bark. Then again, "tripping hard" to me = strong DMT experience in intensity. I was at times flyng through other worlds, but the whole thing wasn't as intense as I would have liked and that part of it didn't last for a very long time. It was extremely lucid (in a very good way). There was a ridiculously intense hum and light was fluctuating throughout. As I said, I will try the harmalas by themselves tonight.

 

[gibran2]

...As I said, I will try the harmalas by themselves tonight.

Please report back.

edit: How much are you planning on taking?

 

[BananaForeskin]

Last night I took 400mg, followed an hour later by a 250mg boost.

After the 400mg started kicking in, after about a half-hour, I could tell it wasn't going to be as strong as the 60g brew I made from this vine before. I was feeling it, for sure, it was just comparatively mild. After an hour had passed, I took a 250mg boost and when THAT kicked in things really started going. The music had sounded good before, but got totally wild, the room was spinning and I had very strong tracers. I got nauseous if I opened my eyes, so I lay down with eyes closed and just surfed through visions to ragas... I must have fallen asleep at some point, came to with a start at T +5 hours still feeling it strongly, stumbled to bed and fell asleep.

The 650mg, (equivalent to about 30g of the vine), was surprisingly on par with the 60g brew overall. There were a few major differences: first, the body high was not as intense with the freebase alks; I wasn't twitching and shivering as much. The distortion of sound was more intense with the freebase, but I wasn't hearing as many sounds which weren't there. There was a stronger visual distortion, but not as many vision-like OEVs. The CEVs were on a similar level in both. The "harmala drunkeness" was on a similar level in both.

No purge!! :d

(When I went to sleep in my bed, had an amazingly vivid dream that I was about to get married to someone I didn't know well, and in the Czech Republic. After hesistating at the altar, I woke up. Also, new word: "Harmalala-land" )

 

[gibran2]

...The 650mg, (equivalent to about 30g of the vine), was surprisingly on par with the 60g brew overall. There were a few major differences: first, the body high was not as intense with the freebase alks; I wasn't twitching and shivering as much. The distortion of sound was more intense with the freebase, but I wasn't hearing as many sounds which weren't there. There was a stronger visual distortion, but not as many vision-like OEVs. The CEVs were on a similar level in both. The "harmala drunkeness" was on a similar level in both.
...

Based on your experience (and mine), the alkaloids seem to be of normal potency and the extraction method seems sound.

650mg caapi alkaloids? How can you do that much? :shock:

I’m still a lightweight – if I take anything approaching 250mg, the nausea becomes very distracting. My last try was with 175mg caapi extracted alkaloids followed 15 minutes later by 100mg DMT. I think the caapi amount was too low, the DMT too high. I’m still searching for that ideal amount. Anyhow, even with only 175mg, I felt distracting nausea for long stretches of the experience. (And once again, it was long – almost 7 hours.)

Here’s a stupid question – does more caapi equal more nausea? If I increase my caapi alkaloids to 300mg or so, can I expect significantly more nausea? Or does the nausea reach a maximum, and not get worse at higher doses?