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fumarate vs citrate

Migrated topic.
pinche

pinche

Rising Star
Are there any advantages to useing fumarate rather than freebase in o.j? In terms of absorbtion rate and consistency of effects.
 
I like to have the fumerate salts to hand as it's easier to have the full mimosa alkaloid profile which is my preference for dosing orally. I have trouble trying to get freebase to disolve on occasion, especially as the oj I drink already seems to be overflowing with other nutrients so there's no room for the DMT in the mix. Citrate salts do absorb nicely though, but I think fumerates do also.

But for DMT citrate I find it a lot more effective adding a little food grade citric acid to a small shot of water, then adding the freebase. That way I can see it desolve and not have to worry about chewing undesolved freebase which is... not pleasant.
 
Freebase dose have troubles dissolving sometimes.

A little off-topic but instead of either, acetates can be salted from limonene/xylene/toluene and evaporated for quite stable and well-dissolving gel/goo. (they are smokable too, just to note)
 
Yeah acetates deserve a second look. The fact that DMT acetate is smokeable as is like freebase and dissolves well in water gives it the best of both worlds.
 
It's smokeable, but that doesn't mean you should smoke it. Most salts are smokeable, but you probably shouldn't smoke them. What makes you so sure that inhaling acetic acid vapors in that concentration is safe? I've heard you say that it's safe because people cook with vinegar, but that is completely different, that is acetic acid dispersed within a large volume of space (you would inhale only a small fraction if any) rather than inhaling it straight into your lungs. Just curious if you had anything to back that up besides the fact that folks get high from it.

Aside from this, is there any solubility info available on citrate salts?
 
Narmz, freebase DMT is smokeable, but that also doesn't mean you should smoke it. Who said smoking freebase DMT is good for your lungs anyway?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. There isn't anything that you should smoke. Smoking is unhealthy.

If you're trying to say that smoking freebase DMT is healthier than smoking DMT acetate, I don't buy it. Where's the proof of that? I would think it's healthier because it's not as caustic so it would not burn your lung tissue as much as freebase DMT does. Freebase DMT is a caustic base. DMT acetate is much less irritating to your flesh.
 
What I'm trying to say is that acetic acid is corrosive in high concentrations. How can you suggest that people smoke DMT acetate when you don't know the concentrations they are inhaling? Are you saying that DMT acetate is less corrosive than freebase DMT? I'd accept that cause you seem like a knowledgeable person, I just didn't know that freebase DMT was less detrimental to your health to stick in your lungs than acetic acid vapors. Got any data?
 
one SWIM on the forum has been working on dehydrating the acetates out of gooey acetates using a food dehydrator. The results are apparently a slightly-different smokable which is quite possible to breakthrough one. Upon thinking about it, SWIM's acetates were evaporated from vinegar over boiling water so he may have done a similar thing but partially.

That could completely solve this issue.
 
narmz said:
What I'm trying to say is that acetic acid is corrosive in high concentrations. How can you suggest that people smoke DMT acetate when you don't know the concentrations they are inhaling? Are you saying that DMT acetate is less corrosive than freebase DMT? I'd accept that cause you seem like a knowledgeable person, I just didn't know that freebase DMT was less detrimental to your health to stick in your lungs than acetic acid vapors. Got any data?
Click to expand...

There is no official data on DMT acetate. Only the data you’ll find from users of it exists.

Put freebase DMT on your tongue. It burns like HELL. Put DMT acetate on your tongue, its much more pleasant. I think the same would apply to your lungs.

Some people feel pain in their lungs when they smoked DMT, even pure DMT. This is because it's caustic. It burns you. It's a base like sodium hydroxide. Bases chemically burn you if they are strong enough.

When you couple a base with an acid, you lower both the acid's acidity and the base's alkalinity. You make it burn you less.

It's just like when you put sodium hydroxide on your tongue. It burns like hell and makes a hole. If you put hydrochloric acid on your tongue, it also burns like hell. But if you mix hydrochloric acid and sodium hydroxide, you make sodium chloride. That’s table salt. That doesn’t burn at all. The same thing applies with alkaloids which are bases, like DMT. While acetic acid is irritating, and DMT burns you like hell, DMT acetate is less irritating. The odor of pure DMT acetate is not the strong odor of vinegar. It’s the odor of DMT acetate, which is unique.

The only way the acetic acid might be as irritating as vinegar is if it came apart while smoking the DMT acetate or there was free acetic acid left in the end product (not drying it properly can cause that). If it broke into DMT and acetic acid, then it might be irritating, but it doesn’t seem to do that. It seems to vaporize as DMT acetate. How do I know? Because people who smoke it say it takes longer to come up and has a stronger body load. That is proof it is DMT acetate and not breaking apart as it’s vaporized. Another thing that’s proof is that the vapor would have the taste of vinegar and DMT, but it has the taste of DMT acetate.

There is no other hard core “proof” other than from various user’s experimentation.
 
Interesting acetate conversation, but i was actually hopeing for more info on fumarates and citrates.Espeacially from you 69ron, i know your an expert on this.Im not interested in smoking anything these days.

Lets say a normal oral freebase dose for someone is 50mg. What would be an equivalent dose for limonene extracted FASW dmt fumarate? Ive heard the full spectrum alks are much more potent for some reason.

Also if someone was planning on useing reduced caapi tea for maoi could they easily dissolve fumarate into the tea? In your opinion how would this differ from freebase dissolved in citrus?
 
Recent tests indicate that the citrate salt can be crashed out in the same way as fumarates from limonene using IPA saturated with citric acid.
 
Ron, that's really interesting, thanks for explaining that. I hadn't imagined that the acetate would actually stay together, figured it would break apart when heated at that temp. Do you think that the citrate salt would behave in a similar way?
 
Narmz, citric acid is very heavy. I think it will burn rather than vaporize, destroying all of it. But I don’t know for sure.
 
narmz said:
Recent tests indicate that the citrate salt can be crashed out in the same way as fumarates from limonene using IPA saturated with citric acid.
Click to expand...
Well, of course; but dmt citrate is much more soluble in IPA than dmt fumarate. That is one of the main reasons no citric acid is used.

IPA saturated with tartaric acid, malic acid and maleic acid also have the same result (and the same drawback) in limonene.
 
Is IPA not completely miscible with Limonene? When SWIM mixes ipa with limonene and lets it settle, there is a distinct line that is visible, though they appear to be somewhat miscible, there is some sort of separation that occurs.
 
69ron said:
Narmz, citric acid is very heavy. I think it will burn rather than vaporize, destroying all of it. But I don’t know for sure.
Click to expand...

SWIM thinks they would probably burn too.

Also citrates that are not in solution are TERRIBLE to work with.

They are somewhat like slow "magic mud" (cornstarch and water) in that they flow when not touched, but instead of just compressing from changes in inertia they become BRITTLE and SNAP!

It really is a very cool substance, but just like magic mud, something not easy to work with.
 
SWIM got two different looking results from crashing out citrates. The first was brown crusty stuff, that is only slightly sticky, a crumbly consistency that is not hard to work with. The second was a yellow goop that had properties like q21q21 described. They both are very bitter tasting. SWIM took the goopy stuff and dissolved in a solution of 50/50 water/glycerol. SWIM will test 5 drops of this solution under the tongue to see if any effects are noticed.
 
SWIM's test:

I had some mixes with mystery concentrations, one with freebase N-oxide, one with freebase jimjam and the third with jimjam citrate.
all were mix into some vinegar. I evaporated to a goo with clear citrate properties/texture.

I thought I'd do a dual purpose test,
1:test the potency of the batch compared with pure acetates for an approximate concentration
2:test the smokablility of citrates

I took 30mg of the goo and smoked it. Firstly there was a little DMT-vinegar taste, clearly the DMT-acetates.
Then the machine copper caught on fire (lighter was 3 inches away) and NASTY NASTY HARSH citric smoke burned my lungs. It a terrible terrible experience and my lungs still hurt.

The effects were similar to that of 2-4mg freebase SWIM would assume
Click to expand...

Ugh SWIM needs to stop guinea pigging smokables.... well the acetates were very successful... lets just stick with that

So citrates: not smokable.

Anyway, is there a way remove the citric acid from the DMT without freebasing??
 
Swim just had a quick experience that included 200mg harmalas with 40 mg fumerate taken as pharma..... he wasnt feeling too much so an hour later he loaded 100mg fumerate thinking it was freebase. No real visuals to speak of, but insane auditory hallucinations. There was an orchestra playing for swim, and each instrument was getting tuned into swims head one by one. There was alot of crackling in his eardrums that was actually getting swim worried though.
 
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