Glass VS HDPE

[MoonMoonLeftShark]

Hi everybody!

I'm getting closer and closer to my first extraction (ACRB). As I review the material here on the Nexus and read the chat history in the Welcome Area, I am starting to have some confusion on a particular topic of the process. Containers!

I've been conducting a survey of containers in my local supermarkets to see what the little symbols are.... the number in the triangle. Most of what I see are HDPE 2 with LDPE 4 lids. As I have this debate in my head about glass VS HDPE, and what to do about lids/stoppers, I came across this discussion on the chat Welcome Area:

no
do not use hdpe
here is why
from the company that manufactures hdpe
In addition to many individual chemicals (mentioned below), Phillips lists two major classes of chemicals that are not compatible with HDPE: aromatic hydrocarbons, and halogenated hydrocarbons. The basic aromatic hydrocarbon is benzene (a major component of gasoline); others are toluene (also called methylbenzene), and the three xylenes (o-, m-and p-xylene). Others include naphthalene (moth balls), and pdichlorobenzene (also moth balls). These aromatic hydrocarbons "permeate excessively and cause package deformation," says Phillips.

So, it sounds like I should be using glass? What do people here use? What does everybody use for lids or stoppers? I've read that rubber stoppers will melt in the basic soup. Or does none of this really matter, since it won't be in that container long enough to cause problems? If I use a mason jar, will it's lid be safe?

Glass! Only glass..
Best with lab glass (Borosilicate) but general glass will do if careful.
just watch your temp changes

I like this idea, although proper lab glass can get expensive. Do you stir your mix in lab glass? Swirl it? Stopper and shake it? What kind of stopper do you use?

if you need a bottle, go to the booze store, buy a 2l bottle of port, drink the port and then use that bottle

This sounds like a great alternative! But I have the same questions as above. I can't really use a stir rod in a narrow mouth bottle. Swirling seems like it might work ok. Would you use a cork? One of those new-fangled fake corks? Rubber? Or are you mixing in some other way I haven't realized yet. Why can shaking bark soup turn into such an involved question!?!?!?


I'm sorry if I have quoted you out of context from the chat, and as such, I didn't attribute the quotes. I hope it was ok to quote you here. And I'm sorry for the noob questions. I've been lurking here for a bit trying to absorb as much information as possible before sounding like all other noobs asking for the easiest route to bliss. The Nexus seems like a great group of people who have really managed to help the community while also looking out for the public perception of this molecule. I'm honored to get a chance to share in this knowledge and experience.

Thanks,
MoonMoon

 

[Dzog]

Xylene and Toluene both often come supplied in HDPE bottles. I have had Xylene stored for years in the HDPE container that it came with without any noticable attacking of the plastic. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but if it does it must be very slight. If you were to further purify your product by acid/base or recrystallization I'd imagine that would be enough to take care of any contamination if present.

Having said that though, I can't really see any reason not to use glass. I'm sure you can find a suitable container for this. I believe those red rubber stoppers will be attacked by non-polar solvents, but I have not tested that. I was always told not to use them for chemistry anyway. Also, avoid metals other than stainless steel which does not react with strong acid or bases.

Dzog

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Xylene and Toluene both often come supplied in HDPE bottles. I have had Xylene stored for years in the HDPE container that it came with without any noticable attacking of the plastic. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but if it does it must be very slight. If you were to further purify your product by acid/base or recrystallization I'd imagine that would be enough to take care of any contamination if present.

:!: Just because you don't notice the xylene degrading the plastic doesn't mean it's not happening. Take a step back and think about the topic, are you really ok with smoke "just a little" plastic?

First of all, re-x will not remove plasticizers from your product as both the freebase DMT and plasticizers are soluble in the NPS. Read this. Second, the Xylene you are referring to likely wasn't/isn't intended for use with products that are going to be consumed by human beings. Third, the quote above is from, Philips, the company that makes HDPE. I think it's safe to say that they know better than you

Finally, there's this:

E - 30 Days of constant exposure causes no damage. Plastic may tolerate for years.
G - Little or no damage after 30 days of constant exposure to the reagent.
F - Some effect after 7 days to the reagent. The effect may be crazing, cracking, loss of strength or discoloration.
N - Not recommended. Immediate damage may occur. Depending on the plastic, the effect may be severe crazing, cracking, loss of strength, discoloration deformation, dissolution or permeation loss.

And remember, for a product you are consuming, 'E' is the only acceptable rating.

Please don't give potentially dangerous advice.

 

[Dzog]

No, I'm not okay with smoking plastic. I all ready said that my observation didn't mean that it isn't happening and am not saying Philips are wrong. "Take a step back" and think about how a recrystallization works though and you will see that your statement about them both being soluble in the solvent is exactly what makes it work. Like I said though, there's no reason not to use glass so just use it. You seem to have ignored and twist what I actually wrote as an excuse to patronize me. :!:

 

[null24]

No, I'm not okay with smoking plastic. I all ready said that my observation didn't mean that it isn't happening and am not saying Philips are wrong. "Take a step back" and think about how a recrystallization works though and you will see that your statement about them both being soluble in the solvent is exactly what makes it work. Like I said though, there's no reason not to use glass so just use it. You seem to have ignored and twist what I actually wrote as an excuse to patronize me. :!:

Seriously doubt Snozz has it in for ya, d. :thumb_up:
It's simply harm reduction thru clarification.

Pardon my ignorance, but if plastics and your alks have dissolved into an NPS ( as per a re-x) how exactly do you then seperate them?

 

[sbc1]

If chemicals come in hdpe bottles and they last for years, why wouldn't it be safe because surely if you was doing a experiment with those chemicals your experiment would be flawed because of the leaching plastics

 

[SnozzleBerry]

"Take a step back" and think about how a recrystallization works though and you will see that your statement about them both being soluble in the solvent is exactly what makes it work.

If freebase DMT and plasticizers are both soluble in the same solvents, and re-xing involves dissolving dmt (plus plasticizers, in this case) in a solvent they are both soluble in and then re-crystalizing the dmt (i.e. creating conditions in which the dmt, plus plasticizers in this case, are no longer soluble in the solvent), then how does a re-x separate your DMT from your plasticizers?

Please explain.

If chemicals come in hdpe bottles and they last for years, why wouldn't it be safe because surely if you was doing a experiment with those chemicals your experiment would be flawed because of the leaching plastics

Look at the chart. The chemicals in question would degrade HDPE if stored for years and have been documented by people on this very forum as degrading HDPE bottles in much shorter amounts of time. Hell, even D-limonene will eat away at HDPE.

 

[null24]

Due to simplicity and fear of glass breakage, I used HDPE for my first extractions. However, the application of heat and solvent to the plastic in at least one case caused noticeable degradation, so I exclusively use glass nowadays.

 

[Dzog]

I understand you wanting to protect people but there comes a point where protecting people from themselves is actually harmful. You slowly erode their ability to think and research for themselves. All I offered were observations and what I believe to be fact. What people do with that information is up to them and if they are unable to decide for themselves they should not be attempting any chemistry, however basic it is. Our advice was actually the same: don't use plastic and you don't need to think about it.

I'd like to offer some harm reduction advice which may not be very popular here: Don't give people step by step instructions and hand-holding, as historically in clandestine chemistry this has only lead to problems for everyone including many incarcerations.

Acid/base chemistry and recrystallization theory can be learned from any number of chemistry text books, and really needs no further discussion. If people have not educated themselves on these simple concepts then they should not be attempting to put them in to practice, making step by step instruction unnecessary. Your intention might be to help people but you are actually harming them and others.

That is about all I have to offer so I will leave you all in peace

 

[Dzog]

"Take a step back" and think about how a recrystallization works though and you will see that your statement about them both being soluble in the solvent is exactly what makes it work.

If freebase DMT and plasticizers are both soluble in the same solvents, and re-xing involves dissolving dmt (plus plasticizers, in this case) in a solvent they are both soluble in and then re-crystalizing the dmt (i.e. creating conditions in which the dmt, plus plasticizers in this case, are no longer soluble in the solvent), then how does a re-x separate your DMT from your plasticizers?

Please explain.

When you cool your recrystallization solvent, a minor contaminant will remain dissolved in the solvent. That is why recrystallization works.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I understand you wanting to protect people but there comes a point where protecting people from themselves is actually harmful. You slowly erode their ability to think and research for themselves. All I offered were observations and what I believe to be fact. What people do with that information is up to them and if they are unable to decide for themselves they should not be attempting any chemistry, however basic it is. Our advice was actually the same: don't use plastic and you don't need to think about it.

I'd like to offer some harm reduction advice which may not be very popular here: Don't give people step by step instructions and hand-holding, as historically in clandestine chemistry this has only lead to problems for everyone including many incarcerations.

Acid/base chemistry and recrystallization theory can be learned from any number of chemistry text books, and really needs no further discussion. If people have not educated themselves on these simple concepts then they should not be attempting to put them in to practice, making step by step instruction unnecessary. Your intention might be to help people but you are actually harming them and others.

That is about all I have to offer so I will leave you all in peace

You are avoiding the question.

Had you read the link I shared early on in the thread, you would have seen endlessness' explanation of how to properly remove plasticizers from an alkaloid extract.

The reason he made that post is precisely because you can't remove the plasticizers by re-xing.

Please stop giving harmful advice and attempting to mask the fact that you gave incorrect info by claiming it would be more detrimental to explain the supposed theories underlying your belief.

Your belief is incorrect, you cannot re-x to remove plasticizers. Stating that people should simply not use plastics to avoid the problem does not help people who have already used plastics and are having this problem. These are precisely the people that your original advice would have harmed.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

When you cool your recrystallization solvent, a minor contaminant will remain dissolved in the solvent. That is why recrystallization works.

That definition doesn't really mean anything. "A contaminant" may refer to any undesirable compound. So, consider people who are looking to extract pure dmt from certain acacias. Their final product may contain nmt and betacarbolines, both of which could be considered contaminants, and will remain through multiple re-x's.

Similarly, plasticizers can crash out and be redissolved right along with DMT.

Just because something is a "contaminant" does not mean that a re-x will magically remove it from the desired compound. This is why chromatography exists.

 

[Dzog]

Similarly, plasticizers can crash out and be redissolved right along with DMT.

If that happens then you are not using the right solvent or combination of solvents, not using the right technique, or the impurity is too large to deal with by recrystallization as is the case with NMT I beleive (I have no experience with that)? This is exactly what I meant about people needing to learn the theory and not be walked through everything. It's all written in books that are over 100 years old.

Honestly, if you had just read my first post properly this conversation wouldn't even have started. I said I would imagine "acid/base OR recrystallization" would help. I was not avoiding the question either, I had all ready answered it and those are my true beliefs.

If I had not felt so alienated from your first reply, I would have been more willing to have a discussion about it and not got defensive.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Similarly, plasticizers can crash out and be redissolved right along with DMT.

If that happens then you are not using the right solvent or combination of solvents, not using the right technique, or the impurity is too large to deal with by recrystallization as is the case with NMT I beleive (I have no experience with that)? This is exactly what I meant about people needing to learn the theory and not be walked through everything. It's all written in books that are over 100 years old.

This is simply neither correct nor safe information. Even if you do a freeze precipitation and most of a given plasticizer stays in solution, there is still solvent on the re-x'd product that evaporates and would therefore leave residual plasticizers on the alkaloids in question.

Additionally, you have no clue how large anyone's potential plastic impurity is, so stating that a re-x will remove it unless there's too much (as you've now amended your initial statement) is an entirely meaningless assertion, in addition to being incorrect.

Again, you have no way of knowing what plasticizers are present in what quantities following someone's use of plastics for an extraction, so stating that a re-x will rectify the issue is an incorrect and potentially dangerous claim to make.

Did you even read this? If not, you should. It also addresses the fact that a/b is not a guarantor of removing phthalates

 

[anne halonium]

as much as i love plastic for grow ops,
im glass ONLY for chem.

 

[Spiralout]

I dont think snozz was overstating anything

this is a questin taht comes up constantly

If something is something then no matter how good your imaginatin is yur not gunna change it..

you have alot of time to extract. you might as well wait for ideal conditions

getting proper materials isnt hard to do or expensoive in most cases.

plues you dont have to wondedr if there plastics in what your vaping.

i honestly dont know the chemmistry as to weather they are sollubble in polar solvents; i might be wrong but i think polar and non polar is relative ala ph levels

gotta research that

 

[TreehouseChemist]

Acid/base extraction will get rid of plastic contaminates, but would have to be done a second time in a non-plastic container anyway which would defeat the point. Also, recrystallization with a suitable solvent will get rid of minor contaminates (including plastics).

I'm almost positive that plasticizers are not used in HDPE. Former professor of mine was a retired plastics researcher from DOW and he never mentioned them being in HDPE, and I can't find anything online saying they are used in HDPE. I'll admit that it is a fun word to throw around though.

As for the original question about containers, I would say that HDPE is safe for naptha, ethanol, and acetone. A general rule from my former chem work was that if it comes in a plastic container then it can be used in a plastic container (there are exceptions to this, like acetone will dissolve some plastics but comes shipped in hdpe, but all the plastic containers in lab were hdpe anyway), and if it comes in a metal or glass container only use in glassware.

If you are paranoid about plastics (or don't have a plastic-safe solvent), use glass. If you don't have/cant afford lab glass, I'd recommend going to the grocery store and getting one of those 1 gallon jugs of wine from the bottom shelf (they are 10-15 bucks here). The wine is terrible, I used to dump in the bathwater and soak in it (supposed to tighten skin), but the glass jug is big and sturdy. DO NOT dump pure hydroxide in to the jug and try to swirl it in there. It can overheat and break the glass. Instead, mix the hydroxide and water in a separate container(plastics are ok for this), let it cool, then use that solution to basify your mix in the jug. The glass is safe for the gentle, distributed heat change of base-ing with a solution, and is also safe for non polar solvents that may dissolve plastic. You can also put the lid on and roll jug on the carpet to gently mix the water and nps without making emulsions.

That being said, lab glass/equipment is definitely preferred for most applications. You asked about mixing, well nothing beats tossing everything in a flask and putting on a hotplate with magnetic stirring. You asked about separations, it's hard to match a glass separatory funnel for that. It's hard to get an even separation with siphoning, the plastic bag method works but involves plastic. If you are new I'd recommend checking around the site for some picture tutorials so you get an idea of the procedure.

-Treehouse

 

[SnozzleBerry]

From here

Acetone LDPE / HDPE at 20C°-50C° - damage may occur. Not recommended for continuous use.

So when it comes to this...

As for the original question about containers, I would say that HDPE is safe for naptha, ethanol, and acetone. A general rule from my former chem work was that if it comes in a plastic container then it can be used in a plastic container (there are exceptions to this, like acetone will dissolve some plastics but comes shipped in hdpe, but all the plastic containers in lab were hdpe anyway), and if it comes in a metal or glass container only use in glassware.

Not so much.

As it has been pointed out in numerous threads, just because a chemical is shipped in HDPE does not necessarily mean that the chemical is safe for use in the manufacture of products for human consumption by a kitchen chemist.

I'm really surprised that there's any push back to this. None of you have any way of guaranteeing that people using plastics can do so safely, especially given the information posted by manufacturers. I have repeatedly posted links directly to manufacturers and chemical supply houses (as does benzyme in the earlier links I gave) that show that the advice you folks are giving is not as safe as you claim.

Given the safety risks stated by the manufacturers and professionals how is this even a discussion? Why are you willing to put your opinions, gut feelings, and beliefs up against these clearly stated warnings? Why are you willing to put potentially unsafe info out there? None of you are in a position to help out anyone harmed by potentially unsafe advice.

I know I'm starting to get heated but seriously, I just don't understand the motivation for posting contrary information when you don't have the evidence to back it up and we are discussing a health and safety issue.

:?

It's hard to get an even separation with siphoning, the plastic bag method works but involves plastic.

This just gets a bonus WTF :thumb_dow

 

[anrchy]

LoL

I stray away from plastic exactly for the reasons that snozz is pointing out. This is called harm reduction and obviously isn't very well known info so I'm glad that snozz hasn't let up and walked out on this thread. As a community it is very important that we hold strict standards to reducing the amount of misleading or false info on this forum.

There is a very important reason why there are sheets like the one above that show you what chemicals degrade what materials. From a non food grade point of view these things can be overlooked easily and short cuts can be made. If you are using these chemicals to extract stuff that you will then put in your body short cuts can be dangerous. If there is even the slightest possibility that unwanted chemicals can be leached into your end product do you really want that in your body? If your not worried that's fine... but do not come here and even make the slightest of suggestive talk that it's even in the realm of possibly safe to others that will read your posts.

 

[TreehouseChemist]

If the acetone comes in an HDPE container, I don't think switching it to another HDPE container is going to add anything new or harmful to your product. If it can dissolve HDPE then it is already in there, switching to another container made of the same stuff isn't going to magically make it contaminated (I don't see why they would ship reagent chemicals in a container that would contaminate them anyway, but you seem pretty certain so I'm not going to argue that point). And if you are talking about using paint-thinner acetone from a hardware store, plastic contamination is the least of your worries.

It's hard to get an even separation with siphoning, the plastic bag method works but involves plastic.

This just gets a bonus WTF :thumb_dow

Why? I was saying that glass sep funnels are better than those methods.