Glass VS HDPE

[MoonMoonLeftShark]

Hi everybody!

I'm getting closer and closer to my first extraction (ACRB). As I review the material here on the Nexus and read the chat history in the Welcome Area, I am starting to have some confusion on a particular topic of the process. Containers!

I've been conducting a survey of containers in my local supermarkets to see what the little symbols are.... the number in the triangle. Most of what I see are HDPE 2 with LDPE 4 lids. As I have this debate in my head about glass VS HDPE, and what to do about lids/stoppers, I came across this discussion on the chat Welcome Area:

no
do not use hdpe
here is why
from the company that manufactures hdpe
In addition to many individual chemicals (mentioned below), Phillips lists two major classes of chemicals that are not compatible with HDPE: aromatic hydrocarbons, and halogenated hydrocarbons. The basic aromatic hydrocarbon is benzene (a major component of gasoline); others are toluene (also called methylbenzene), and the three xylenes (o-, m-and p-xylene). Others include naphthalene (moth balls), and pdichlorobenzene (also moth balls). These aromatic hydrocarbons "permeate excessively and cause package deformation," says Phillips.

So, it sounds like I should be using glass? What do people here use? What does everybody use for lids or stoppers? I've read that rubber stoppers will melt in the basic soup. Or does none of this really matter, since it won't be in that container long enough to cause problems? If I use a mason jar, will it's lid be safe?

Glass! Only glass..
Best with lab glass (Borosilicate) but general glass will do if careful.
just watch your temp changes

I like this idea, although proper lab glass can get expensive. Do you stir your mix in lab glass? Swirl it? Stopper and shake it? What kind of stopper do you use?

if you need a bottle, go to the booze store, buy a 2l bottle of port, drink the port and then use that bottle

This sounds like a great alternative! But I have the same questions as above. I can't really use a stir rod in a narrow mouth bottle. Swirling seems like it might work ok. Would you use a cork? One of those new-fangled fake corks? Rubber? Or are you mixing in some other way I haven't realized yet. Why can shaking bark soup turn into such an involved question!?!?!?


I'm sorry if I have quoted you out of context from the chat, and as such, I didn't attribute the quotes. I hope it was ok to quote you here. And I'm sorry for the noob questions. I've been lurking here for a bit trying to absorb as much information as possible before sounding like all other noobs asking for the easiest route to bliss. The Nexus seems like a great group of people who have really managed to help the community while also looking out for the public perception of this molecule. I'm honored to get a chance to share in this knowledge and experience.

Thanks,
MoonMoon

 

[TreehouseChemist]

Also, we used to use the acetone for drying glassware because it evaporates without leaving any residue. If there were dissolved contaminates that do not evaporate wouldn't they be noticeable on the glassware after the acetone evaporates? It had been sitting in an HDPE jug for months or years, so it had plenty of time to pick up those plastic contaminates if it is capable of dissolving it.

If acetone dissolves HDPE and would leave contaminates in your product after evap, why was there nothing on the glass?

 

[pitubo]

I wholeheartedly agree that plastics are to be avoided for use in extractions, for various reasons.

But there is a point to be made about the fact that most solvents do come in plastic bottles in the first place. If contamination is an issue with plastics, then we must assume all OTC solvents to be contaminated from the start.

Being in the possession of distillation glassware, I distill all my solvents before use and store them in glass bottles. Not everyone has this option though.

Treehousechemist: acetone does degrade hdpe over time, albeit slowly. A friend kept some in a 5 liter container and at some point it started to crack. Apparently the hdpe got brittle after a few years.

I've bought toluene at a store where the hdpe bottles were clearly deforming on the shelves. It looked almost like the bottles were melting. Next time I visit that place, I'll try to take a picture if it is still like that.

 

[pitubo]

If acetone dissolves HDPE and would leave contaminates in your product after evap, why was there nothing on the glass?

Because after rinsing, most acetone is flushed out of the glassware, so there is simply very little acetone to leave behind visble amounts of residue? Try gently distilling a liter of the "hdpe aged" acetone and then evaporate the still-pot bottoms in an evaporation dish and check what residue is left.

 

[TreehouseChemist]

I would give it a try but I don't have access to the lab anymore ^.^

And of course I agree that lab glass (or even regular glass) is a better option than plastics, but like you said not everyone has a chem set so I was trying to give options that one could get by with.

But since the topic of acetone and HDPE seems to be the focus: Even if acetone does slowly dissolve HDPE but takes years to do it, how much is really going to be picked up in a 1-2 day extraction? And also, it is made of chains of ethylene, and ethylene is used on fruit plants to make them ripen so a one time miniscule exposure probably isn't too dangerous (plus it is a gas at room temp and would evaporate off your product even before the acetone did, so unless you were planning on drinking the acetone you wouldn't have any contamination to worry about).

As for the HDPE bottle cracking after several years, that's natural. HDPE decomposes in about 100 years from what I remember, so after a few years of degradation plus the pressure from supporting a liquid plus light, heat, and environmental factors it wouldn't surprise me if the bottle cracked even while holding water.

And I don't know about toluene, we always got toluene in glass bottles and they sell at the hardware store in metal jugs, so I have no experience with toluene and HDPE.

-Treehouse

 

[Spiralout]

So this boils down to common sense....

You can call the sk green and I can call itt blue; ou can say that that bullet in your chest isn't going to kill our friend even when you know it is....

Doesnt change anything.

Wanna rush extractions and use plastic then that's what our gunna do, not gunna talk ou out of it.

But the fact is the information is objective fact. Is lighter fluid in a plastic bottle at walmart meant for a lab?

Theres different grades of materials.

 

[TreehouseChemist]

You can call the sk green and I can call itt blue; ou can say that that bullet in your chest isn't going to kill our friend even when you know it is....

Seems like you have some experience smoking extracts made with plastics ^.^

But the fact is the information is objective fact.

How about the objective fact that I took acetone that had been stored in HDPE bottles for months (and even years) and evaporated it on glass and there was no residue?
How about the objective fact that ethylene is a gas at room temp and any dissolved ethylene would evaporate even before the acetone is done drying?

Is lighter fluid in a plastic bottle at walmart meant for a lab? Theres different grades of materials.

I said that already when I was talking about the reagent-grade acetone compared to hardware store.

Wanna rush extractions and use plastic then that's what our gunna do, not gunna talk ou out of it.

Pretty sure everyone in this thread has mentioned that they have a chemistry set and use lab glassware for everything, but thanks for attempting to be condescending.

-Treehouse

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Ultimately, what it boils down to is this

None of you have any way of guaranteeing that people using plastics can do so safely, especially given the information posted by manufacturers.

Additionally, you have no clue how large anyone's potential plastic impurity is, so stating that a re-x will remove it unless there's too much (as you've now amended your initial statement) is an entirely meaningless assertion, in addition to being incorrect.

Again, you have no way of knowing what plasticizers are present in what quantities following someone's use of plastics for an extraction, so stating that a re-x will rectify the issue is an incorrect and potentially dangerous claim to make.

There is a very important reason why there are sheets like the one above that show you what chemicals degrade what materials. From a non food grade point of view these things can be overlooked easily and short cuts can be made. If you are using these chemicals to extract stuff that you will then put in your body short cuts can be dangerous. If there is even the slightest possibility that unwanted chemicals can be leached into your end product do you really want that in your body? If your not worried that's fine... but do not come here and even make the slightest of suggestive talk that it's even in the realm of possibly safe to others that will read your posts.

None of the people trying to argue for a modicum of safe plastic use have any way of knowing what the people who have used or might potentially use plastic containers are doing. Have the containers been sitting around for extended periods of time, does the extraction get left in the container for an extended period of time, how much packet deformation takes place in a couple of days, etc?

None of you actually have any answers to those questions, and you also have no clue who is reading this, who is using plastics, and it what manners.

Because you lack any of that information, the best you can do is say (in direct contradiction to statements made by the manufacturers and professionals) that you don't think it's that bad.

What I'm telling you is to knock it off. The Nexus policy doesn't care that you don't think it's that bad. You have not demonstrated (and have no way of demonstrating) that this is safe in the myriad of possibilities that surround the use of plastics. Given that you have no way of demonstrating that this is safe, there's no reason to be arguing in favor of using plastics, as all it takes is someone misreading one of the numerous caveats you've all made in your arguments and potentially ingesting something that's not safe to ingest.

This is the end of this particular discussion.

 

[sbc1]

What's the boiling/vaporisation point of hdpe

 

[SnozzleBerry]

What's the boiling/vaporisation point of hdpe

Really? :?:

Well, since you asked...

 

[Jees]

Had xylene stored in hdpe flask once (it closed tight, no gas leaking, no pressure build either) and it permeated the bottle making the place smell, had to switch to glass, problem solved.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Based on discussion with the mod team, we have decided that the direction this thread was moving presented more harm than good and have decided to lock it as a result.

Glass should be used for extractions and people interested in learning how to potentially clean a product contaminated with plastic should read this thread by endlessness.