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Going against ancient dietary advice

lewis.beattie

Rising Star
Has anyone found that these low-tyramine diets really help with ayahuasca? I’ve been advised to get on a low tyramine diet before ingesting ayahuasca (caapi and chacruna tea). I would love to hear some reports of personal experimentation with this.
Cheers
 
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Did you mean low tyramine diet? That's what has been suggested by western science since a few decades and the truly ancient diet is of a different paradigm, no meat, no sex etc.

My many years of experience showed that the digestive system is fast enough to prevent such chemical clashes as long as you stop eating for at least 5 hours before drinking, and also the mao inhibition rapidly ceases after the experience. However, it appears the barks (mimosa and acacia c.) add to and extend the mao inhibition. Once after a rue and acacia, kombucha gave me a headache. And once even the morning after a rue and mimosa experience, aged cheese gave me an excruciating headache. But those were in my beginners time, I see myself wise to follow the traditional diet rules of no fermented foods and no dairy before and after the experience now, and these restrictions are concerned about energetic/spiritual incompatibilities rather than tyramine headaches.
 
Did you mean low tyramine diet? That's what has been suggested by western science since a few decades and the truly ancient diet is of a different paradigm, no meat, no sex etc.

My many years of experience showed that the digestive system is fast enough to prevent such chemical clashes as long as you stop eating for at least 5 hours before drinking, and also the mao inhibition rapidly ceases after the experience. However, it appears the barks (mimosa and acacia c.) add to and extend the mao inhibition. Once after a rue and acacia, kombucha gave me a headache. And once even the morning after a rue and mimosa experience, aged cheese gave me an excruciating headache. But those were in my beginners time, I see myself wise to follow the traditional diet rules of no fermented foods and no dairy before and after the experience now, and these restrictions are concerned about energetic/spiritual incompatibilities rather than tyramine headaches.
Yes thank yo Uber much, that’s what I meant. And thanks for the info. What is your recommendation ultimately?
 
As implied in my reply, what I believe the ideal way to be, and which I take utmost care not to breach, is to follow the traditional diet and also quit eating at least 5 hours before drinking. Others over here might have different opinions, but regarding tyramine headaches, the raw data is that yes it can happen if you mix foods rich in tyramine with the brew.
 
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I always assumed the stimulant properties I've experienced from rue were due to the acetylcholinesterase inhibitor activity of both the beta-carbolines and vasicinone-type alks.

But agreed, I had to stop my daily rue dosing because I couldn't get any sleep!
 
I always assumed the stimulant properties I've experienced from rue were due to the acetylcholinesterase inhibitor activity of both the beta-carbolines and vasicinone-type alks.

But agreed, I had to stop my daily rue dosing because I couldn't get any sleep!
Is it about the mixing with the MAOI and not so much the Dmt?
 
Is it about the mixing with the MAOI and not so much the Dmt?
I'm not entirely sure I understand your question.

In my experience I have never noticed any negative physiological effects combining syrian rue tea after having recently eaten high-tyramine foods.

I took the position that any normal food wouldn't cause a hypertensive effect from older discussions on the Nexus. I think the argument is that tyramine is a competitive enough substrate compared to harmalas that there isn't a risk of absorbing much tyramine.

I remember the user jamie reasserting in bioassay they never had trouble with any high-tyramine foods and ayahuasca after much experience.

To clarify my earlier post was in response to Transform's. Not to invalidate either experience, since we could each react to the plant differently.

I'll try to find one of those old threads.

Edit: Here's one of them: The Controversial "Ayahuasca Diet"
 
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Been taking Harmalas pretty much daily in the heaviest dosages possible for 12 years now, never noticed any Tyramine interactions or Tyramine-related headaches. One thing that i see a lot of people always failing to take into account when talking about Harmalas and headaches, is that Tyramine is not the only possible thing that could cause headaches and is very unlikely to be what's causing people's headaches. Harmalas (and especially Rue itself which has additional compounds) inhibits Acetylcholinesterase and one of the side-effects of those inhibitors is headache.

Another thing is that Harmalas/Rue have vasodilative properties (especially Rue, which is more noticeable at 3 to 4 grams compared to 2 grams even though 2 grams can still build up the Harmala reverse tolerance just the same as 3 to 4 grams will, just slower/weaker compared to 3 to 4 grams which builds it up faster/more strongly, so that indicates extra compounds in Rue which contribute to the increased vasodilation) which also can cause headaches.

Harmalas/Rue can also be rather dehydrating and may also have diuretic properties, which can also contribute to headaches. Harmalas/Rue also have anti-microbial properties and/or potential temporarily inflammatory properties which ime at least seems to flare up teeth issues i've had over the years because i'll get hella headaches due to my as of yet to be removed impacted wisdom teeth as well as a tooth i had filled that has some residual pain every now and then and it seems to be microbial-related because i can use mouthwash or oral anti-microbials to counteract the microbial shift due to the Harmalas/Rue which ceases the headache (and occasionally tooth pain), which is something also worth taking into consideration for anyone who may have impacted wisdom teeth or a tooth issue or any kind of gum/tooth inflammation in general which may flare up while on Harmalas/Rue and cause a headache which may be relieved via some other anti-microbial or a tooth brushing or mouthwash or what not.

Aside from that, there may be other properties which could cause a headache, including potential conflictions between something the Harmalas/Rue/DMT is doing and an admixture plant if one is in the mix, like for example there were a couple or so different plants i had tried out back in the day as potential admixture plants with my Rue and Mimosa/Acacia and though i can't remember which plants they were i do remember getting a stiff neck and shoulder/upper back alongside a headache, and that only happened with those specific plants in the mix and without them in the mix that didn't happen. I've also slept wrong here and there and woken up with a sore shoulder/neck which led to a noticeable headache while on Harmalas/Rue and if i massaged a spot on my neck i would notice the pain and headache go away. I've also noticed similar feeling headaches from Clonidine before, which can lower blood pressure by acting as an Alpha 2 Adrenergic agonist, which Harmalas would technically indirectly activate due to the rise of Noradrenaline, and DMT also acts as a direct agonist at as well, which may also be worth factoring in here.

Ime though, i would say most often anytime i've had a headache with Harmalas/Rue especially on their own, it was due to my teeth. I can't remember having ever had a headache prior to my tooth issues.

As for people's insomnia, there's a few things that could be, but it ain't Tyramine. Harmalas/Rue obviously inhibits MAO-A which raises Dopamine/Noradrenaline/Adrenaline levels, Harmaline also inhibits COMT which further raises Dopamine/Noradrenaline/Adrenaline levels, Harmaline also is said to inhibit Histamine N-Methyltransferase which would raise Histamine levels. Ime it appears that the insomnia could likely come from the COMT inhibition, as when i use pure Harmine or Caapi or light roast Rue (which breaks down Harmaline but retains Harmine and some background compounds) i don't seem to notice the COMT inhibition but when i consume Harmaline/raw Rue i do notice the COMT inhibition alongside a greater intensity and stimulative effect which can bring with it insomnia (which is likely why i'm sitting here typing this out at 5am when i'm normally asleep by 3am, which i have taken my Methylfolate and B12 which can increase Dopamine/Noradrenaline/Adrenaline so that's probably been potentiated by the Rue.

So yeah, as far as food goes, i usually fast the whole day and only eat like right before bed which is like, depending, 8 to 12 hours after taking my nightly Rue dose, though back when i first started out i was still eating throughout the day, and i've eaten right before and right after taking the Rue, as well as during the active gut MAO-A inhibition window, and pretty much throughout the effects at different times. I've never once had a headache i've experienced be correlated to anything food-wise, even fermented foods and cheeses and Alcohols and all that, though one time i had some beer while on Rue which caused hella vasodilation (and i was low in Folate/B12 which i'm convinced deficiency leads to greater toxic effects from alcohol) and i had a headache then but i also had other times i drank beers, vodka, whiskey, tequila, wine, champagne, etc while on Rue and had no problems. And in the event that one should suspect a certain food or drink is tied to a headache they experience while on Rue, it's worth considering what else may be in that food/drink that could contribute to headaches because Tyramine isn't any issue with Harmalas.

The gut's MAO-A inhibition from Harmalas only lasts up to about an hour and a half to two hours after taking the Rue, after that, gut MAO-A completely goes back to normal, as is evidenced by DMT's lack of oral activation if taken at that point, as well as Psilocin's lack of potentiation if taken at that point, as well as Tryptamine's lack of oral activation if taken at that point, so gut MAO-A is only transiently/temporarily inhibited, long enough for these things to become orally active. Tyramine however is metabolized by both MAO-A and MAO-B, so while MAO-A is inhibited, even if some of it manages to become orally active, MAO-B can still break it down, but if MAO-B can't break it all down then the Tyramine can displace reversible MAO-A inhibition (maybe in the gut, but also in the brain and liver i'd imagine) by acting as a competitive substrate and thus MAO-A can become unbound from the Harmalas and can metabolize the Tyramine. The main issue with Tyramine pretty much solely has to do with irreversible MAOI's, because irreversible MAOI's knock out the MAO enzyme(s) for approx 2 weeks until MAO can regenerate itself, which thus allows Tyramine to build up to "toxic levels" and cause hypertensive crisis-like effects/reactions, reversible MAO-A inhibitors however do not have this issue.

It's also worth mentioning that if you take Harmalas regularly for awhile and build up the reverse tolerance and let all the side-effects go away, you can eat whatever, whenever, while on Harmalas/Rue and there's literally no issues and no headaches. Again though, headaches can be caused by other things, like a tooth issue (in my case, which i notice even with the side-effects gone), but aside from something like that or some dehydration or additive vasodilation/lowered blood pressure of some sort, there shouldn't be any headaches noticed with regular consumption, which says that it's not the MAO-A inhibition, nor Tyramine, that's the issue, it's something else.

If i truly thought there were any dietary interactions with Harmalas/Rue/Caapi, i would definitely have noticed it by now and would recommend exercising caution, however personally i haven't found any dietary risk at all and according to the science on the matter as well as other people's experiences (even those who said they've had headaches and attributed them to Harmalas and Tyramine, yet a few of those examples also claimed the headache they got was like a week later after eating some cheese, which by that time gut MAO-A would definitely be back to normal, as well as liver and brain MAO-A for that matter, as a single dose of Harmalas ime is completely out of the system and neurotransmitter levels seemingly completely back to normal within say 3 to 4 days), i don't see any real evidence for a Tyramine interaction with Harmalas (or Moclobemide, which i've also used quite a bit).
 
My only two headache incidents were when acacia and mimosa were involved, and I believe they were the reason rather than rue.

The n-methylated form of tyramine in Phalaris aquatica has consistently produced very concerning cardiovascular side effects.

Be careful with taking rue daily for long periods of time, especially without fasting. There is evidence that this might not be good for the liver even though with occasional use on an empty stomach it is hepatoprotective.

As for stimulation and insomnia, this is a given part of the rue experience for me. Drinking rue before sleeping while can give unusual dream activity, also makes me feel sleep deprived the next day. And doing a proper ceremony that is finished before bedtime changes my hormones such that I am not able to sleep past sunrise for days or weeks. It forces me to get my sleep cycle in synch with the Sun.
 
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I have not challenged the diet advice to the limit but once I threw up when I drank caapi after eating a heavy meal with lots of soy sauce. Though it might have been the fact that I had a full stomach, usually take it on empty stomach and no nausea or throwing up. No headache. Other than that I actually crave meat even on caapi though it will smell more like death than usually. I figure that the smell of death might have upset people in the ancient times so hence the advice even if it does not cause any interaction.

Stimulants, drugs, medicine etc will be more dangerous than most food. That is to be taken very seriously. Harmalas will cause death with many substances.
 
I have not challenged the diet advice to the limit but once I threw up when I drank caapi after eating a heavy meal with lots of soy sauce. Though it might have been the fact that I had a full stomach, usually take it on empty stomach and no nausea or throwing up. No headache. Other than that I actually crave meat even on caapi though it will smell more like death than usually. I figure that the smell of death might have upset people in the ancient times so hence the advice even if it does not cause any interaction.

Stimulants, drugs, medicine etc will be more dangerous than most food. That is to be taken very seriously. Harmalas will cause death with many substances.
So is it mainly the caapi that is the caution with eating foods and mixing other drugs? Is there anything about the chacruna x caapi mix?
 
So is it mainly the caapi that is the caution with eating foods and mixing other drugs? Is there anything about the chacruna x caapi mix?
I figure chacruna won't have any diet limitations, it's mostly about the caapi. Mimosa Hostilis on the other hand will have tannins that will react with your stomach lining/GI track and mess up with digestion. It is indeed commonly used for tanning of leather. It will have the same kind of effect on your stomach. It's pretty violent brew. Caapi has some tannins too but it's not so hard on the gut.
 
I figure chacruna won't have any diet limitations, it's mostly about the caapi. Mimosa Hostilis on the other hand will have tannins that will react with your stomach lining/GI track and mess up with digestion. It is indeed commonly used for tanning of leather. It will have the same kind of effect on your stomach. It's pretty violent brew. Caapi has some tannins too but it's not so hard on the guWhat do u think of I brewed
What do u think about someone brewing up 250g of caapi with 320g of chacruna, dried? Will the extra chacruna block the caapi from working at all?
 
My only two headache incidents were when acacia and mimosa were involved, and I believe they were the reason rather than rue.

The n-methylated form of tyramine in Phalaris aquatica has consistently produced very concerning cardiovascular side effects.

Be careful with taking rue daily for long periods of time, especially without fasting. There is evidence that this might not be good for the liver even though with occasional use on an empty stomach it is hepatoprotective.

As for stimulation and insomnia, this is a given part of the rue experience for me. Drinking rue before sleeping while can give unusual dream activity, also makes me feel sleep deprived the next day. And doing a proper ceremony that is finished before bedtime changes my hormones such that I am not able to sleep past sunrise for days or weeks. It forces me to get my sleep cycle in synch with the Sun.
What if someone brewed up 350g of chacruna with 250g of caapi? Would the chacruna block the caapi from working?
 
Been taking Harmalas pretty much daily in the heaviest dosages possible for 12 years now, never noticed any Tyramine interactions or Tyramine-related headaches. One thing that i see a lot of people always failing to take into account when talking about Harmalas and headaches, is that Tyramine is not the only possible thing that could cause headaches and is very unlikely to be what's causing people's headaches. Harmalas (and especially Rue itself which has additional compounds) inhibits Acetylcholinesterase and one of the side-effects of those inhibitors is headache.

Another thing is that Harmalas/Rue have vasodilative properties (especially Rue, which is more noticeable at 3 to 4 grams compared to 2 grams even though 2 grams can still build up the Harmala reverse tolerance just the same as 3 to 4 grams will, just slower/weaker compared to 3 to 4 grams which builds it up faster/more strongly, so that indicates extra compounds in Rue which contribute to the increased vasodilation) which also can cause headaches.

Harmalas/Rue can also be rather dehydrating and may also have diuretic properties, which can also contribute to headaches. Harmalas/Rue also have anti-microbial properties and/or potential temporarily inflammatory properties which ime at least seems to flare up teeth issues i've had over the years because i'll get hella headaches due to my as of yet to be removed impacted wisdom teeth as well as a tooth i had filled that has some residual pain every now and then and it seems to be microbial-related because i can use mouthwash or oral anti-microbials to counteract the microbial shift due to the Harmalas/Rue which ceases the headache (and occasionally tooth pain), which is something also worth taking into consideration for anyone who may have impacted wisdom teeth or a tooth issue or any kind of gum/tooth inflammation in general which may flare up while on Harmalas/Rue and cause a headache which may be relieved via some other anti-microbial or a tooth brushing or mouthwash or what not.

Aside from that, there may be other properties which could cause a headache, including potential conflictions between something the Harmalas/Rue/DMT is doing and an admixture plant if one is in the mix, like for example there were a couple or so different plants i had tried out back in the day as potential admixture plants with my Rue and Mimosa/Acacia and though i can't remember which plants they were i do remember getting a stiff neck and shoulder/upper back alongside a headache, and that only happened with those specific plants in the mix and without them in the mix that didn't happen. I've also slept wrong here and there and woken up with a sore shoulder/neck which led to a noticeable headache while on Harmalas/Rue and if i massaged a spot on my neck i would notice the pain and headache go away. I've also noticed similar feeling headaches from Clonidine before, which can lower blood pressure by acting as an Alpha 2 Adrenergic agonist, which Harmalas would technically indirectly activate due to the rise of Noradrenaline, and DMT also acts as a direct agonist at as well, which may also be worth factoring in here.

Ime though, i would say most often anytime i've had a headache with Harmalas/Rue especially on their own, it was due to my teeth. I can't remember having ever had a headache prior to my tooth issues.

As for people's insomnia, there's a few things that could be, but it ain't Tyramine. Harmalas/Rue obviously inhibits MAO-A which raises Dopamine/Noradrenaline/Adrenaline levels, Harmaline also inhibits COMT which further raises Dopamine/Noradrenaline/Adrenaline levels, Harmaline also is said to inhibit Histamine N-Methyltransferase which would raise Histamine levels. Ime it appears that the insomnia could likely come from the COMT inhibition, as when i use pure Harmine or Caapi or light roast Rue (which breaks down Harmaline but retains Harmine and some background compounds) i don't seem to notice the COMT inhibition but when i consume Harmaline/raw Rue i do notice the COMT inhibition alongside a greater intensity and stimulative effect which can bring with it insomnia (which is likely why i'm sitting here typing this out at 5am when i'm normally asleep by 3am, which i have taken my Methylfolate and B12 which can increase Dopamine/Noradrenaline/Adrenaline so that's probably been potentiated by the Rue.

So yeah, as far as food goes, i usually fast the whole day and only eat like right before bed which is like, depending, 8 to 12 hours after taking my nightly Rue dose, though back when i first started out i was still eating throughout the day, and i've eaten right before and right after taking the Rue, as well as during the active gut MAO-A inhibition window, and pretty much throughout the effects at different times. I've never once had a headache i've experienced be correlated to anything food-wise, even fermented foods and cheeses and Alcohols and all that, though one time i had some beer while on Rue which caused hella vasodilation (and i was low in Folate/B12 which i'm convinced deficiency leads to greater toxic effects from alcohol) and i had a headache then but i also had other times i drank beers, vodka, whiskey, tequila, wine, champagne, etc while on Rue and had no problems. And in the event that one should suspect a certain food or drink is tied to a headache they experience while on Rue, it's worth considering what else may be in that food/drink that could contribute to headaches because Tyramine isn't any issue with Harmalas.

The gut's MAO-A inhibition from Harmalas only lasts up to about an hour and a half to two hours after taking the Rue, after that, gut MAO-A completely goes back to normal, as is evidenced by DMT's lack of oral activation if taken at that point, as well as Psilocin's lack of potentiation if taken at that point, as well as Tryptamine's lack of oral activation if taken at that point, so gut MAO-A is only transiently/temporarily inhibited, long enough for these things to become orally active. Tyramine however is metabolized by both MAO-A and MAO-B, so while MAO-A is inhibited, even if some of it manages to become orally active, MAO-B can still break it down, but if MAO-B can't break it all down then the Tyramine can displace reversible MAO-A inhibition (maybe in the gut, but also in the brain and liver i'd imagine) by acting as a competitive substrate and thus MAO-A can become unbound from the Harmalas and can metabolize the Tyramine. The main issue with Tyramine pretty much solely has to do with irreversible MAOI's, because irreversible MAOI's knock out the MAO enzyme(s) for approx 2 weeks until MAO can regenerate itself, which thus allows Tyramine to build up to "toxic levels" and cause hypertensive crisis-like effects/reactions, reversible MAO-A inhibitors however do not have this issue.

It's also worth mentioning that if you take Harmalas regularly for awhile and build up the reverse tolerance and let all the side-effects go away, you can eat whatever, whenever, while on Harmalas/Rue and there's literally no issues and no headaches. Again though, headaches can be caused by other things, like a tooth issue (in my case, which i notice even with the side-effects gone), but aside from something like that or some dehydration or additive vasodilation/lowered blood pressure of some sort, there shouldn't be any headaches noticed with regular consumption, which says that it's not the MAO-A inhibition, nor Tyramine, that's the issue, it's something else.

If i truly thought there were any dietary interactions with Harmalas/Rue/Caapi, i would definitely have noticed it by now and would recommend exercising caution, however personally i haven't found any dietary risk at all and according to the science on the matter as well as other people's experiences (even those who said they've had headaches and attributed them to Harmalas and Tyramine, yet a few of those examples also claimed the headache they got was like a week later after eating some cheese, which by that time gut MAO-A would definitely be back to normal, as well as liver and brain MAO-A for that matter, as a single dose of Harmalas ime is completely out of the system and neurotransmitter levels seemingly completely back to normal within say 3 to 4 days), i don't see any real evidence for a Tyramine interaction with Harmalas (or Moclobemide, which i've also used quite a bit).
What if someone brewed up 350g of chacruna with 250g of caapi? Would the chacruna block the caapi from working? Or would there be any problems other than potentially wasting materials?
 
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