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gone too far with fasting and foods?

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olympus mon

olympus mon

Esteemed member
OG Pioneer
there seems to be 2 different schools of thought on fasting and abstaining from certain foods before ayahuasca journeys. ive read that the reasons for fasting include safety and health as well as potency of experience.

as an observer of people its pretty obvious that we as humans take things too far. in all areas not just entheogens. we will read information that states; "substance A was shown to have some effect on substance B" and take that as not only holy doctrine but usually amplify/exaggerate the effect potential in our minds.

i eat very healthy and fitness is a major part of my life so with that being said i feel having an empty or a very light stomach usually increases the ingested substance effects but not always. i ate the resin equivalent of 4g of mushrooms last week on a totally empty stomach and had a blahh ho hum trip. i actually ended up reading a book around hour 2! then last night and hour after a decent meal with some friends and 3 cocktails in me ate 2g of the same mushroom resin and had a much more powerful experience. i add this to use as a reference that there's a lot of variables at play food being just one of them.

in talking to friend yesterday i was describing my fledgling caapi only experiences when she asked how many days i fasted, and that her ayhuasca guru friend said you should fast for a solid week! thats crazy talk man! i just think this fasting thing might be a bit much for me. i hate not eating as i burn so many calories during my training when im hungry its all i can think about. i think my hunger might even contribute to having lack luster trips because my body is screaming for nourishment.

i guess my question is do you really think that eating something like bacon the morning before an evening ayahuasca session can truly be harmful or have significant effects? or having some blue cheese on your salad for lunch? same thing, is this really that big of a deal? is fasting 24hours vs. 4-6 hours that much better to do?
 
endlessness said:
I disagree both with the fasting and with the banana idea.

As for fasting, I feel that one gets weaker when fasted for long, specially at the end of the trip. I preffer just eating light during that day, and having had something small (like some fruits for example) a couple of hours before ingesting. Also imo this makes it better for purging, which can become difficult or specially uncomfortable if it has been too long without eating anything.

MAOIs and food do not really interact as the myth goes. If someone has problems with banana and ayahuasca, its their own beliefs and/or unique personal metabolism issue (just like some people are allergic to dairys or whatever), but its not something generalizable.

People blow this whole diet thing way out of proportion. Research shows there is no issues of interaction reversible type-a MAOIs like harmalas, and tyramine. What I do think is that ayahuasca gives a message of being healthy in general, having a routine with balanced diet. If one does that, there is nothing to fear. Of course there is a general good sense that if you are going to take a brew that has tannins and other substances which the stomach might feel more sensitive about, then having eaten a very heavy meal is probably not gonna sit very well and you might have a specially strong nasty nausea/purging. But independent of diet, purging can be a natural part of ayahuasca experience (also because alkaloids can trigger serotonin signalling in the guts which naturally cause nausea)
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heres some great info from endlessness from a previous thread. its a great example of how contrasting opinions can be.
 
Everybody is different.

In my personal case, I found my experiences to be horrifying, reprimanding, and exhausting, whenever I would attempt to fast. Eating lightly (in terms of ease of digestion, e.g., fresh food vs. fried, not amounts), and healthier GENERALLY, seemed to be the way to go. But, my work with the medicine has also focused heavily upon self-respect, building and strengthening my temple (which I had formerly spent my entire life trying to destroy).

In my experience with Aya, fruits intensify the experience. Whether this is due to the sugars, all the other plant compounds present, or both, I don't know. But I never take the medicine without a bit of fruit. The experience hits stronger, faster, and harder this way. Experiences that have seemingly ended can be kicked up again, too (cherries I find especially potent, and they're loaded with melatonin, MAOI, etc.).

--->Now, to be taken with a pound of salt, here are my own personal experiences, and they do get quite interesting:

In regards to more extreme, traditional dietary precautions: there is a threshold of sensitivity where these become more relevant. In my first two years of working with the medicine, avoiding salt, spice, etc. seemed to make no difference. This largely felt like "myth."

Now, having spent a long time on an extremely clean diet and very regular use of Caapi microdosing, I've developed a level of sensitivity, where, if MAO inhibited, foods thought to have modest mood boosting effects have resulted in INTENSE, unexpected trips. I've been surprised by cherries, peaches, tumeric, cacao, white tea, and barley grass, to name a few. As I seem to increase my levels of sensitivity and awareness, traditional dietary measures make more sense (salt and oil will bring a trip down). I literally HAVE to be careful with what I eat, lest I spin into another unexpected trip. :shock:

But I never fast... I eat 2500-3000 calories a day, fruit, with a bit of greens, sprouts, veggies, seaweeds. I pursue this diet for optimal physiological and neurological health.

This level of intense reaction was NOT always the case!! My body has changed over time. I used to sit around, mow down handfuls of cacao beans, then go drink Ayahuasca and not feel a thing. Now, if I so much as have literally one bite of cacao, a homeopathic amount, I will be up all night, hallucinating (3am is the worst time), having panic attacks and riding my bicycle up and down the deserted night streets because I can't calm down. I've had numerous rough experiences where I've written myself off, thinking, "this is me exaggerating, placebo, suggestion," then I would go and eat more and be up all night with a psychedelic panic again.

But, I have to say again, these extreme dietary measures ONLY became relevant, slowly, over time, after TOTALLY overhauling my diet, lifestyle, and including a steady, regular influx of these chemicals over a period of years.

It's enough to make me wonder, though, about some of the things shamans say about plant communication, and even reaching a point where the medicine isn't needed anymore...

I've had a lot of mindblowing experiences in the past 6 months from regular, "non-hallucinogenic" foods: the only difference being I am running my body with CONSTANT background levels of Caapi, and probably a boatload of other MAOIs from eating kilos of fruit. I will eventually write up a post to share, detailing all of this... I think there is something to it. :shock:

Edit: Perhaps, haha, I have gone a bit too far, but as long as my health continues to improve and it is fascinating, I'd like to see where it goes. It doesn't hinder me socially, in any way (quite easy to grab some apples and hit the road :p ). I'm not neurotic or isolated because of my choices. The only thing I miss is chocolate in my smoothies. :evil:
 
olympus mon said:
endlessness said:
I disagree both with the fasting and with the banana idea.

As for fasting, I feel that one gets weaker when fasted for long, specially at the end of the trip. I preffer just eating light during that day, and having had something small (like some fruits for example) a couple of hours before ingesting. Also imo this makes it better for purging, which can become difficult or specially uncomfortable if it has been too long without eating anything.

MAOIs and food do not really interact as the myth goes. If someone has problems with banana and ayahuasca, its their own beliefs and/or unique personal metabolism issue (just like some people are allergic to dairys or whatever), but its not something generalizable.

People blow this whole diet thing way out of proportion. Research shows there is no issues of interaction reversible type-a MAOIs like harmalas, and tyramine. What I do think is that ayahuasca gives a message of being healthy in general, having a routine with balanced diet. If one does that, there is nothing to fear. Of course there is a general good sense that if you are going to take a brew that has tannins and other substances which the stomach might feel more sensitive about, then having eaten a very heavy meal is probably not gonna sit very well and you might have a specially strong nasty nausea/purging. But independent of diet, purging can be a natural part of ayahuasca experience (also because alkaloids can trigger serotonin signalling in the guts which naturally cause nausea)
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heres some great info from endlessness from a previous thread. its a great example of how contrasting opinions can be.
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It goes beyond than merely opinions. Endlessness' point of view justifies and rationalises the dietary routes he advocates. How about this ayahuasca guru friend of yours? I'd normally ask: "fasting for a week, really? why's that?" If he was telling me about MAOI-related diatary restrictions I'd be wary of his reasons. But if it was along the lines of "purification" or similar, then that's an explanatithat on I can deal with.

Mind you, the Nexus is one of the first places (if not THE first!!) challenged the myth of MAOI-related dietary restrictions in ayahuasca and other ways of beta-carboline intake and that there are still many webpages that still advocate very very outdated information!
 
thank you for sharing you experiences ms.minxx as always very informative

it sounds like to me that your so in tune with your body, foods and caapi/ayahuasca that you able to notice these subtle changes quite easily.:)thats awesome. your probably very sensitive to caffeine and sugars as well as things like kava and Valerian root ext...

i've always been the exact opposite. there's very few foods or everyday substances that i can feel changes in my body. ive always needed many times more than everyone else. it kind of sucks but its also why i doubt i would notice any differences in eating a cured meat the day of taking ayahuasca. im just not that sensitive to some changes or nuances. plus i lean twords the fact that theres just not much evidence supporting these claims of food interactions with caapi. it seems its more cultural myth and thats one reason i wanted to get this conversation going.

if it isnt true then maybe its about time to end the speculation and go with facts.
 
SWIM has eaten bacon the morning of her last two aya journeys with no problems at all. She's very sensitive to some things, like refined sugars and alcohol, yet not with others.

In contrast to Ms. Minxx, her health steadily degrades without some meat in her diet, so this area definitely has a highly personal aspect to it.
 
I hate fasting so much..they say it reduces stress and anxiety, I think thats bullshit..trust me, you dont want to be around me if I am fasting. It also makes me feel like im on the verge of a panic attack constantly..i cant go 1 day without food let alone a week. I feel like I eat tons of food but I'm still thin, if I fasted for a week I might die.

Also If I dont have animal flesh in my diet, like fish at least, I feel like Im going to have a panic attack alot of the time, andhave inthe past and spent hours pacing around untilI finally sucked it up, gave into whats natural and ate some fish.
 
Infundibulum said:
But if it was along the lines of "purification" or similar, then that's an explanation that I can deal with.
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This is the main reason I fast prior to any major work. It's a mental practice of mind over matter...exercising the separation of the body from the mind...a on-ramp of sorts.
Sacrificing the desires and needs of physicality in preparation to commit fully to the non physical existence experienced in hyperspace. The weaker the body the clearer the dividing line between flesh and soul.

That being said, I usually eat some fruit a couple hours before partaking, and have some loaded granola and veggies prepared for after. The mind needs energy too. :)
 
I usually don't follow any diet. I try not to eat much on the day of a pharma trip, but there was a time when I ate a hamburger before a pharma trip. It didn't seem to affect the experience. Not everyone cares about fasting. Harmina and Harmaline are RIMA's, reversible inhibitors of monoamine oxidase.

From Wikipedia, "RIMAs are displaced from MAO-A in the presence of tyramine,[1] rather than inhibiting its breakdown in the liver as general MAOIs do. Additionally, MAO-B remains free and continues to metabolize tyramine in the stomach, although this is less significant than the liver action. Thus, RIMAs are unlikely to elicit tyramine-mediated hypertensive crisis, and a special diet does not need to be so strictly adhered to, although eating excessively large amounts of tyramine-containing foods is still not advisable."
 
Fasting is the worst thing I can do to myself. I just eat healthy before a trip and I don't eat right before a trip. But I always eat some fruits in second half of a trip. Usually oranges and melons.
 
Yeah..hmmm a week you say.

I fast for 5-6 hours before an Aya cerimony. That's it. I may stay away from heavy foods that morning and the night before.

Even currandero's in Brazil and Peru usually only talk about a fast the day of or maybe even the day before. Mostly they talk of a dieta, which is eating only certian food and staying away from others, mainly salty, fatty, or spicy. Also some may say to abstain from sex for a certain amount of days before and/or after, this is mainly for spiritual reasons.
 
In Peru the shaman's didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with eating lightly throughout the day prior to an ayahuasca session in the evening. An experienced Ecuadorian shaman I've had a few sessions with here in the UK was of the opinion that 6 hours fasting before hand was fine, as one need's to be strong and in good shape for an ayahuasca experience, which they might not be after an extended fast.
 
even 6 hours is moer than I could do..I have a fast metabolism and id be sooo tired if I didnt eat for 6 hours..unless I drank in the am atfer sleeping, which I have done and it destroyed me. I eat 2 or 3 hours before I drink.
 
this is nonsense - i have a super quick metabolism - very fast - cant imagine it being faster.
i can fast for a week if i wish and quite comfortably - like everything it takes practice.
one has to have an empty vessel to travel well.
i cant get into a visionary state if i eat the day of the trip - also when i take it - i must dehydrate myself somewhat - water interferes with things.
iv had friends complain about this before - they listened to what i had to say - practiced and learned - now they can fast just as well too.
with ur stomach not using up all ur blood u can think clearly - if i want to come down from a trip - all i have to do is eat.

a trip on a tummy with food in it - is diluted at best - more like being colorfully drunk - a trip on an empty tummy - with a well oxygenated brain - causes the most visionary experience possible.

it takes commitment to reach this level - most ppl are lazy and happy to say - ooh my body isnt suitable for this - rubbish - go to india - anyone can fast happily for long - just gota train ur body a bit.

also by fasting - it makes ones body take more nutrients from the food one consumes - therefore one needs to consume less food for more energy in future.
i got a lot of friends that overload on complex mixtures of superfoods etc - that isnt really beneficial.
1/5 the amount - after ur body knows how to fast - is far more beneficial to one.

last bit here may sound a bit extreme - but it works for me personally.

i eat perhaps 1 meal every 2 days - and lil bits here and there on ocassion inbetween.
i play at least an hour of hard hakkie sak daily - i sleep 7 hours and im full of zest and energy - i am the last one to get tired when jammin hakkie.
some say that may be bad - but after doing it for years - iv never looked and felt better in my life.
 
Plux,

No, this is not nonsense, but personal experience from different people.

I'm glad you can fast for a week. I personally have no interest in asceticism. If you do, and this is how you want to train your body/mind, more power to you. I train in other ways that are very effective for me.

Please don't say your beliefs are fact and others are not, they are all personal experiences.

My body does not take well to fasting for long periods before an Aya cerimony. For me, and apparently others on here, it doesn't work well. It creates an agitated mind for me, this is not how I want to enter Caapi's realm.

It DOES work for some, and you appear to be of that school...
 
I must agree with acolon. Phlux, if for you it is better to have fasted and if you subjectively feel that water interferes with something and that you must dehydrate a bit, do so, but you cannot generalize it for all people. I did go to india and I did fast and I feel it doesnt work for me, so that argument doesn't stand.

I dont believe in fasting and I have met indigenous people that have a completely different view on it than the 'romantic' western view on fasting and psychedelics. Not to mention there is no consensus amongst all indigenous or relating yogi fasting with indigenous one. I think it just sums up as 'there are as many ways to god as there are created souls' ;)

Also when you make claims such as
by fasting - it makes ones body take more nutrients from the food one consumes - therefore one needs to consume less food for more energy in future.
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can you please back it up with reliable sources?
 
I too have the fast metabolism, i have to eat more than i want to keep weight.

but... i can get deeper on mushrooms when i am low on sugars (stop eating about 8 hours before the trip.) Makes me feel trancy already before the mesc/mush. Though later in the trip, and in particular after a long walk on mescaline, i will start to get really hungry. So as of lately a good meal is always part of the trip : )
 
It's my experience that ayahuasca is best taken not on a totally empty stomach, but about three to four hours after having eaten something light. Taking ayahuasca on a totally empty stomach will lead to more side-effects and discomfort.

Fasting for a longer period of time may lead to deeper experiences, but it would probably leave you literally drained afterwards, certainly when purging has been part of the whole proces.
I feel that taking any psychedelic put's some sort of strain on your system, and it's desirable to properly prepare your mind and body for this so you're more capable of 'recovering' from the experience and to integrate it into your daily life.

I'm using the word recovering, because psychedelic's cause part's of the brain to simply shut-down or become less active, while other parts become more active. I think that getting the closed-down systems up and running again as well as preventing the more active systems from depletion of energy, your body needs a good suply of energy.

So that's why i personally feel that having somewhat of a buffer of calories present within your body is just a good thing and fasting is a bad idea.
 
great information here from everyone.

what im getting out of this is that the stomach should be reasonably empty for good absorption of the actives but not to the point of dry heaving from dire hunger. our bodies need strength and nourishment on journey's the same as any other physical and mental activity. eat clean. be healthy and respect your body through things like exercise and movement."

i like this logic:)
 
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