got many anadenanthera seeds...

[Z E D]

So SWIM has hundreds of Anadenanthera seeds from northeastern Brazil and he'd like to try an extraction, he saw that bigs steps were taken last days...

The problem is that he read that there is a huge difference of efficiency of A. colubrina and A. peregrina on extraction... 69ron's FOAF seemed to have nice results with the one he calls Vilca, that SWIM's doesn't know which specie it is...

So he'd like some light on identifying these seeds.

 

[Jorkest]

they are really hard to tell the difference.

 

[69ron]

Vilca its technically Anadenanthera colubrina, and not Anadenanthera peregrina, but like Jorkest said, it's really hard to tell them apart. Anadenanthera peregrina is generally more toxic and not as potent. I’ve heard all sorts of conflicting things used to identify one species from the other. From what I understand, the only way to identify them 100% is to grow them from the seeds.

 

[Z E D]

well SWIM can see the plant itself, what's the difference of the plant beetween colubrina and peregrina?

 

[jamie]

how viable are the dry seeds used for snuff usually...i would love to grow some but throught that only fresh were viable..

 

[Z E D]

Can I differentiate them by the trunk?

Where SWIM lives there are 2 Anadenanthera variants, they seem to have the same leaves, seeds, seedpods and flowers, but the trunk of one seems flat and the other, full of thorns.

 

[Z E D]

so SWIM found another flat trunk Anadenanthera and did some pics

 

[Z E D]

SWIMM saw that that's hard to use the seeds as criterion of classification: there is a big difference beetween seeds even in the same individue... seeds take different forms, colors and sizes with the age and the health...

could anyone help him on finding which specie this individual is?

 

[polytrip]

if i'm correct, bufotenin is more soluable in water then DMT. If you would extract the seeds with hot water and evaporate the water afterwards, you should therefore have a bufotenin extract. If the stuff you have doesn't contain bufotenin, then the beans are probably peregrina and the remainder could contain some DMT or 5-MeO-DMT.

This would be my method if you cannot tell them apart from outward appearance.

 

[Z E D]

theorically it looks good to me.

Could i try also a cold and acidified water extraction on a percolator column?

 

[kemist]

So SWIM has hundreds of Anadenanthera seeds from northeastern Brazil and he'd like to try an extraction, he saw that bigs steps were taken last days...

The problem is that he read that there is a huge difference of efficiency of A. colubrina and A. peregrina on extraction... 69ron's FOAF seemed to have nice results with the one he calls Vilca, that SWIM's doesn't know which specie it is...

So he'd like some light on identifying these seeds.

ILPT has been struggling with identification too. What ILPT does know is the fact,that those slightly rimmed or flanged seeds always tend to be colubrina - bufo stuff. However this is just a subjective observation and ILPT truly didn`t come across many of different batches as other experienced shoppers.
So he setted up this quick and easy (kitchen friendly) tech to extract just small amounts of seeds ( < ounce )Then simply vaporised that crude extract to get picture of what alkaloids seeds contain. Then he decied whether is worthy to purchase more seeds or not.
Of course he was looking to get some bufo but in case of misidentification he wanted to get any trypts.

This tek is not targeted to get any clean product but mostly to get the whole spectrum of alkaloids(toxic too)in concentrated form.
This crude extract can be vaporised and bioassayed. It`s not clean but 100000000times better then smoke that gross oily seeds.

TELL SWIM TO TRY TOTAL EXTRACTION

You will need: Seeds, Dichlormethane (DCM), calcium hydroxide, water,pH papers,some extraction system(could be just little bottle but soxhlet would be great use if you have one)and some filtration aparature(there`s no need for vacuum cos DCM would go quickly even trough the coffee filter)

1, Grind the whole seeds finely, DO NOT HEAT OR MICROWAWE THEM !!!

2, Deffat the powder with DCM at least 8 times (Soxhlet would be ideal) e.g. for 20 grams of powder were used 8x 40ml DCM

3, Filter off and allow DCM to evaporate from filtration cake

4, Add LIME (calcium hydroxide) VERY CAREFULLY !!! Forgot about 1:2 ratio, it`s far too much unless seeds are tremendously potent (afraid not ) !!!

RECENTLY just 1:10 ratio (2g lime + 20 g powder) rose pH to value 10,5
PREVIOUSLY only 1:20 ratio (0.5g lime + 10g powder) increase PH to 10 (those seeds were actually yopo claimed as vilca with very little DMT in it )
Bufo would by destroyed if pH become too high (you don`t need more then pH 10) . Lime is capable raise pH to 12,5 :shock:

5, Homogenize this powdered mixture an start adding water to make a slightly drier "clay" like mixture. Mix for few minutes ( you should smell ammonia)

6, You can use radiator or oven preheated to 70 celsius, to dry this clay.

7, Now is time for DCM pulls. Pull until your DCM is colourless.

8, Evaporate (distill off )DCM

:!: Bioassay the residue:!:

Either fresh or dried seeds could be used

One should recognise bufo from dmt.

If you find Bufo in those seeds you CAN HEAT THEM MORE (200 celsius)in step 6, and add a bit less lime in step 4,

If you find DMT you DON`T HEAT THEM MORE in step 6, and add a bit more lime in step 4,

Last batch what parrot brought has only little toxines in itish and good portion of bufo soooo BUFO effects were very noticeable :shock: . If he prevaporised the extract (say 150 celsius)most of the toxins gone and smoke was enjoyable.
Side effects were: body load,a little head tension with flush of the face and little nausea without vomiting.(he expected more nausea an even vomiting because of his bad stomach)
As Ron claimed, ONE can avoid most of those effects by vaporising small hits in longer periode of time and munching ginger (thanx buddy for info )

 

[Z E D]

COLUBRINA

PEREGRINA

FALCATA

MACROCARPA

 

[69ron]

What book is that? Is there an English version?

 

[Z E D]

From Constantino M. Torres book Anadenanthera: Visionary plant of Ancient South America

Anadenanthera macrocarpa = Anadenanthera colubrina var. cebil
Anadenanthera colubrina = Anadenanthera colubrina var. colubrina
Anadenanthera falcata = Anadenanthera peregrina var. falcata
Anadenanthera peregrina = Anadenanthera peregrina var. peregrina

 

[Z E D]

What book is that? Is there an English version?

It's Árvores do Brasil (Trees of Brazil), there is no English version, but my friend could translate theese texts if you want so, but it is not much elucidative, it just show dimensions of organs, fenology, and something about the resistence of the wood, pff


Heres a link for the Book Anadenanthera of Constantino Torres

http://ifile.it/6t1i2sf/127094___anadenanthera-visionary_plant_of_ancient_south_america-torres_repke-0789026422.rar

 

[kemist]

EXCELLENT JOB ZED !!!

This explain all that misidentification within anaden. species

It seems that ILPT came across all of them, but if you could only post some sharper picture(better resolution)that would be great.

One believe that the highest content of bufotenine (and less unwanted alkaloids)
would be significant just for one out of this four. But which one is it:?:
Despite what other spicers saying about difficulty to recognise seeds,parrot has very good eye and can recognise little difference between each set of seeds.
Last time he got parcel from KTbot. and there were mixed 2 entirely different seeds one colubrina, other (what ILPT though )peregrina. He is sure with colubrina but after your post he realize it could be any of those three others. Unfortunately there are no seeds left to check it out.


69 ron said he once came across excellent seeds (very high in bufo)and claimed them to be colubrina. But he never posted a picture of them or decribed them and later on, he said he`s unable to recognize difference. So if he was wrong and there weren`t colubrina but macrocarpa or falcata instead,the story about GREAT seeds is very misleading.
There was other bloke claiming to smoke just one seed and have full blow dose of bufo, but he didn`t describe or post picture either.

All what ILPT need for his experiments with bufo are strong seeds (to make all the hassle around extraction and purification worthy).
Vendors have colubrina and peregrina. So if they identified colubrina right then those three others were all peregrina. So "peregrina" stock must vary a lot if it include three different anadenantheras. All parrots seeds were either bunk, have little of something simmilar to harmala alkaloids with very little effects or have just little bufo and loads of toxins and shit.
But he always targeted on Colubrina stock which seems to be wrong now.
He need to go for Peregrina instead and hope that thanx to this circle of misidentification ,he will finally come across "GREAT" seeds.

ZED please translate the book and post pictures of seeds in better resolution if you can!

ILPT pressing his luck with anaden. seeds and it cost him fortune already

Please ZED help him!

 

[Z E D]

think there is a lot of risk of error trying to identificate it by the seeds.

the constantino torres book says you can tear the difference of peregrina and colubrina by the presence of what he calls "anther glands", and the position of the flower peduncle (see conclusion) [edit: and seedpod forms, of course]. He also says that geographical distribution is an important way of identificate, but i don't know... geographical distribution is based on registers of works and i think they are a little limited, but it seems good when he says that one of the species is cold tolerant, and the other is not.

I can translate the texts soon, don't worry, but i had some problems with my cam and can't take high resolution pics.

No way.

 

[kemist]

i had some problems with my cam and can't take high resolution pics.

No way.

That`s a shame, could ya scan them :?:

 

[Z E D]

no, but i will try to get a camera from a friend.

 

['Coatl]

These are amazing fucking pictures! Some of the best I have ever seen for Anadenanthera species!

When you locate the potent strain PLEASE send some seeds out to various growers all around the world so that the best of the best of this amazing species can be preserved.

Please PM me. I may have some information for you.... and I have a few questions.