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Gramine/DMT separation for Phalaris tek

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Manoramix

Rising Star
Hello,

I recently found out that there is a fair amount of alcaloïds in Phalaris Arundinacea, which is very abundant in the part of the world to which I belong. I personnaly prefer to work with local plants, and that's why I came to try a phalaris extraction.

There is a lot of talk about gramine presence in Phalaris, which is not only unpleasant but also very toxic. I've done quit some research about separation methods of the two molecules, but since they are very similar in structure, I have not yet found a effective and easy separation method.

What I know is that they differ slightly in polarity (If I am not mistaken, gramine is less polar than DMT), however there does not seem to be any information on internet about a state (a specific salt form) in which one molecule would be soluble in a particular solvent and not the other.

For extraction I use citric acid, does anybody have information about solubility of DMT citrate and Gramine citrate in different kind of solvents? If not, in another form? What about the freebase form? I've read that gramine is insoluble in water, is this also true for gramine citrate? If yes, would it be possible to remove it by filtration in the first step of extraction? If insoluble, is it heavier than water? Would it fall to the bottom of the mixture?

I also understand that it would be possible (although very difficult) to destillate the mixture since the boiling points of gramine, DMT and 5-meo-DMT differ. However the information about specific boiling points varies extremely from one source to another. And the destillation would have to be performed under vacuum to avoid oxidation... Unfortunatly I don't have access to this kind of labware...

Now, i've read a couple of times that gramine is destroyed when smoked, is this true?

Besides the potential separation of the two molecules (I don't really care if I lose the bufotenine or the 5-meo in the process of doing so...), is there a way to selectively destroy the gramine?

Now, if, as it seems to be, there really is no effective and easy technique of separating the gramine from the rest, does anybody know what the potential short and long term health damages from gramine are?

It's been a few weeks since I first started looking for some answers too this question, but nobody seems to know anything, and discussions about this topic seem mostly to bee made of wild speculations. I would profoundly appreciate any help from anybody that as performed an effective separation of the two...
 
Thanks a lot, your link answers a whole lot of my initial questions.
Now, since y allready did a naphta extraction, I would need to cristalize the freebase compounds, dilute them in vineager, and do a final limonene pull, right?

If I get a sufficient quantity of extract, I would like to have it tested, before doing anything further with it. Do you know what amount is necessary in order to make a full analysis? I'll keep you posted as soon as I have the results.

Thanks again!
 
hexane, heptane or other aliphatic hydrocarbons will dissolve DMT but not gramine nor hordenine. Naphtha works fine too since its usually just a mix of aliphatic hydrocarbons, just make sure it doesnt have aromatics mixed in (like xylene etc).
 
endlessness said:
hexane, heptane or other aliphatic hydrocarbons will dissolve DMT but not gramine nor hordenine. Naphtha works fine too since its usually just a mix of aliphatic hydrocarbons, just make sure it doesnt have aromatics mixed in (like xylene etc).

You mean gramine and hordenine are insoluble in these solvents also? Can you give link to testing? So what's the fuss with extracting from p. brachytachys?
 
sauroman1 said:
endlessness said:
hexane, heptane or other aliphatic hydrocarbons will dissolve DMT but not gramine nor hordenine. Naphtha works fine too since its usually just a mix of aliphatic hydrocarbons, just make sure it doesnt have aromatics mixed in (like xylene etc).

I remember year ago reading in this forum that naphtha does absorb gramine but I would like to know on what basis you now say that it is opposite?
 
endlessness said:
hexane, heptane or other aliphatic hydrocarbons will dissolve DMT but not gramine nor hordenine. Naphtha works fine too since its usually just a mix of aliphatic hydrocarbons, just make sure it doesnt have aromatics mixed in (like xylene etc).

Just looked up hordenine and it is an interesting substance.
I wonder what you would end up with if it was reduced with HI.
 
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