Hallucinogens and masturbation abstinence

[fink]

It depends on your metaphysical world view how 'evil' porn and sensuality in general can be seen as. I wouldn't call it evil, more an expression of a base urge that should be controlled to access higher levels of reality.

While there is some relatively harmless pornographic depictions, there is a very significant proportion that is unethical, violent and degrading. There is also widespread research that the intensity and variety of porn use increases over time, so one is more likely to come into contact with such type of material over time in order to maintain the novelty factor and intensity of arousal.

Why is why I stand by what I said earlier : somehow equating abstinence from masturbation with 'misogyny', while equating masturbation - which frequently accompanies porn use which is often the pinnacle of misogyny, - with a healthy attitude to sex, is one of the most bizaare statements I have come across.

I understand what you've said perfectly, even agree with it. I'm not saying anything about misogyny personally.

I would also like to state that my words here are not to defend watching abusive or exploitative materials in any way nor masturbating ten times a day at the cost of real intimacy with another human.

However, the assertion that sexual release hinders spiritual development, no matter how established through history, is not true for every human.

Periods of abstinence are beneficial, from all things. Nothing in excess is healthy. Not even water or oxygen.

There are spiritual energies, even defined entities, specifically dedicated to the human sexual desire.

If you want to connect with a sexless god, sure, stop wanking. If you want to connect with something else, wank more.

Morally every person should learn what they feel ok with and what makes them feel shame.

We should certainly strive to avoid behaviour that makes us feel shame. In all other instances, spiritual development comes in myriad guises.

Telling others what they should feel shame for, or what they will suffer a penalty because of, based purely on your own spiritual path, feels a little elitist.

Everyone and every thing and every action is equally divine if you believe that we are all part of one source.

Of course abstaining from desires makes one feel a benefit. It would be easy to argue that abstaining from any desire has a similar effect.

It is simply the act of self discipline in all things that benefits us spiritually.

 

[Here&Now]

Of course abstaining from desires makes one feel a benefit. It would be easy to argue that abstaining from any desire has a similar effect.

Just to clarify my view, I think the consequences are more energy-based and tangible. Kind of like a partial loss of the fuel needed to engage the transformative process of kundalini.

I'm not trying to start an argument; just making it clear what I and the traditions believe happens. I definitely don't expect others to align as a predetermined outcome.

 

[fink]

Never seen you being argumentative. Always respectful discussion.

Could you share any experiences you have personally with semen retention increasing your ability to reach 'higher' levels of conciousness?

Do you ever wonder if such practices are valid only in a certain direction of spiritual exploration? IE: is it possible that there could be a different 'higher' realm of consciousness that is accessed by complete sexual satisfaction. The complete opposite.

Or is there only one 'higher' realm and the only way to get there is to keep your sperm contained?

Finally, is this realm so important to miss out on one of the great wonders of being human?

To clarify. My position is actually not to contradict the ancient traditions. Devils advocate in full swing here.

 

[dithyramb]

I can say that I achieve wonderful sexual satisfaction without ejaculating. IME and imo satisfaction is derived from other parameters in sex - the emotional and energetic exchange.

The way sex affects reaching higher states for me[n] is multifaceted. The vital energy loss is the foremost one. When I don't ejaculate, this is overcome. The other way is when the engine of the bodily desires is turned on, it has a momentum that keeps my mind and energy gravitating towards sex and bodily indulgence.

A type of healing ecstatic transcendence is possible through conscious sex, and sometimes I think of it as the highest form of sacred ritual. It just interferes with other types of transcendence during the periods when I am sexually active. I carry the energy of sex and the energy of my partner too powerfully. This is why sex is traditionally contraindicated with Ayahuasca if you want to do purely personal or shamanic work, as far as I understand.

 

[fink]

Thank you dithy. Does that mean getting a vasectomy and still being sexually active achieves the same result?

I would also wonder if being decades in relationships arrives at the same place. With sex readily available does one not come to much more loving and much less urgent mindset naturally?

 

[Here&Now]

Never seen you being argumentative. Always respectful discussion.

Thanks, I really appreciate that.

Could you share any experiences you have personally with semen retention increasing your ability to reach 'higher' levels of conciousness?

Do you ever wonder if such practices are valid only in a certain direction of spiritual exploration? IE: is it possible that there could be a different 'higher' realm of consciousness that is accessed by complete sexual satisfaction. The complete opposite.

Or is there only one 'higher' realm and the only way to get there is to keep your sperm contained?

Finally, is this realm so important to miss out on one of the great wonders of being human?

To clarify. My position is actually not to contradict the ancient traditions. Devils advocate in full swing here.

It's certainly an interesting point that you bring up. If DMT can show us anything, it's that the conceptual limits we impose on reality are, in fact, ultimately meaningless. Transcendence opens us up to an extremely wide range of possibilities, and that would include the option of expressive sexuality being utilized as a tool for spiritual exploration. And now that I think about it, that is very much the belief in Tantric Buddhism. Rather than merely controlling sexual urges, they're assimilated in a more direct manner, often with practices involving people performing intercourse and catapulting their state of consciousness from the unique resulting condition. I do believe there was often an effort to not physically ejaculate, but I don't think that was the case for every practice of this type.

So in that sense, even if we look to the traditions that specialize in esoteric practices, there is some variation in how sexuality is viewed and utilized. Also, as you say, expressing sexuality is an integral part of the human experience. And more than anything else, I agree with the notion of remaining humble that one's chosen path shouldn't be viewed as the one and only way. Circumstance has led me to what could be considered a 'classical' spiritual path, but who knows what else is possible.

As far as personal experience goes, yeah, I've seen enough to be convinced of semen retention's efficacy. There is a phenomenon where the reaching of certain states of consciousness causes an eruption of energy from the bottom of the spine. As it rises to the brain, consciousness becomes clarified and exalted, culminating in a unified state of non-differentiation when it reaches the top. We can call it kundalini, but it'd honestly benefit from a modernized name and understanding that is separate from the root mythology, because in my experience, what's being described here is a literal capability of the human body. Why it is that it's not widely recognized by humanity, I could not say. But to me, this is a real physiological event and not an imaginary artifact.

I went so far in describing kundalini because semen (and the female equivalent) seems to mysteriously be a type of fuel for this process. When consciousness is highly sensitized by kundalini, you can perceive that to be the case. And when semen is lacking from masturbation or whatever else, the elevating effect is noticeably diminished. It's possible I'm misinterpreting the connection and making a 1:1 where it doesn't belong, but I'm relatively confident it's at least mostly accurate.

As a disclaimer, the majority of this was experienced under the effects of 5-MeO-DMT. I'm not so skilled with sober altered states as to be able to cause it under my own steam. But considering 5-MeO-DMT is endogenous, I wouldn't be surprised if it plays a central role in a natural meditator's initiation of kundalini.

 

[Here&Now]

I can say that I achieve wonderful sexual satisfaction without ejaculating. IME and imo satisfaction is derived from other parameters in sex - the emotional and energetic exchange.

The way sex affects reaching higher states for me[n] is multifaceted. The vital energy loss is the foremost one. When I don't ejaculate, this is overcome. The other way is when the engine of the bodily desires is turned on, it has a momentum that keeps my mind and energy gravitating towards sex and bodily indulgence.

A type of healing ecstatic transcendence is possible through conscious sex, and sometimes I think of it as the highest form of sacred ritual. It just interferes with other types of transcendence during the periods when I am sexually active. I carry the energy of sex and the energy of my partner too powerfully. This is why sex is traditionally contraindicated with Ayahuasca if you want to do purely personal or shamanic work, as far as I understand.

Oh nice, looks like you fleshed out the Tantric viewpoint that I mentioned above better than I ever could.

 

[fink]

@Here&Now2 Thank you, that is a very well thought out explanation. I would like to explore, due to the expressions from various members in this thread. I would guess that since puberty I have never gone more than two or three weeks without orgasm. In that, I have no stance to opine on any of this before attempting an experiment myself.

Please forgive my multitude of challenges and questions, for I have another one:

Is it not so that, should we live long enough, the libido declines naturally? On top of that, menopause and impotence will eventually strike us all.

So the questions are:

Would most of us not reach this state of sexless conciousness in the natural way, quite conveniently, just before we prepare to die?

Is there any possibility that this is how we are designed to reach those experiences?

That the full spectrum of human experience already allows indulgence and enlightenment in a specific order?

 

[Here&Now]

@Here&Now2 Thank you, that is a very well thought out explanation. I would like to explore, due to the expressions from various members in this thread. I would guess that since puberty I have never gone more than two or three weeks without orgasm. In that, I have no stance to opine on any of this before attempting an experiment myself.

Please forgive my multitude of challenges and questions, for I have another one:

Is it not so that, should we live long enough, the libido declines naturally? On top of that, menopause and impotence will eventually strike us all.

So the questions are:

Would most of us not reach this state of sexless conciousness in the natural way, quite conveniently, just before we prepare to die?

Is there any possibility that this is how we are designed to reach those experiences?

That the full spectrum of human experience already allows indulgence and enlightenment in a specific order?

No problem at all, happy to engage.

That's true that libido can and usually does decline with age. I guess I tend to align with your way of considering it, where a human naturally starts trending towards retention as their body gradually nears its end. It's pure speculation on my part, but I bet it's possible this is a built-in feature that nudges a person in this direction, perhaps for the sake of their (often unconscious) spirituality. But who could say for sure; this is some very murky waters from our perspective.

I should also add that I'm not really a perfect paragon of masturbation abstinence. I'm guessing I do it a lot less than the average male of my age, but I occasionally give in to urges like anyone else. And when it happens, I try to take it in stride and consider it a natural expression that refused to be ignored. When it comes to abstinence's contributions towards the ease of attaining mystical states, I find that you really only need a week or two of control to be topped off. I think practitioners of Taoism follow comparable formulas, though it's probably better to go by feel rather than get too neurotic with it.

 

[fink]

Interesting. So perhaps the practice of abstinence when younger, in a sense manipulating the (let's assume) designed system, may even produce stronger spiritual experiences. I say this because when we are younger our sperm production should be at it's highest.

Would having a vasectomy while still satisfying any sexual urge have the same result? Semen retention achieved despite no need for discipline or abstinence.

 

[Panpsychic]

Is it not so that, should we live long enough, the libido declines naturally? On top of that, menopause and impotence will eventually strike us all.

So the questions are:

Would most of us not reach this state of sexless conciousness in the natural way, quite conveniently, just before we prepare to die?

Not necessarily. Firstly, it's not guaranteed that one would reach old age for this natural decline to take place.

Secondly having heard from older people, while there is some some natural decline it often isn't as pronounced as one might think - more that the desire remains but the availability is no longer so much there which leads often to frustration.

I really feel it is something that needs to be consciously worked on, which is where your broader world view would come in as to if it was indeed necessary and beneficial for your spiritual development as a motivator. Of course it would also be easier to motivate yourself in this direction if you are already old and aren't surrounded by strong sensual stimulus so much,but again with the pervasiveness of the internet, this is also not so easy to separate from now.

 

[Here&Now]

Interesting. So perhaps the practice of abstinence when younger, in a sense manipulating the (let's assume) designed system, may even produce stronger spiritual experiences. I say this because when we are younger our sperm production should be at it's highest.

It seems possible that the vitality and resiliency of youth could offer even more opportunity for immediate spiritual progress, especially when a certain amount of abstinence is observed. I was in my early 20s when first got into this world, and I can attest that I had an abundance of energy to direct towards it. These days, it's a bit more difficult to find the same kind of fire. But I suppose there are tradeoffs, such as the inherent wisdom of age that comes after witnessing so much.

Would having a vasectomy while still satisfying any sexual urge have the same result? Semen retention achieved despite no need for discipline or abstinence.

Definitely not sure about this one. I couldn't tell you the scientific reason as to how reproductive fluid plays a role in spirituality, so it'd be even more difficult still when considering whether a vasectomy changes the equation. That'd be a pretty awesome hack if it works though.

 

[fink]

Not sure if I'd specifcally want to be sliced and diced to find out but certainly if there is such power in a biological function we will eventually find a way to do both. We love all kinds of sex almost as much as killing and dominating each other us humans.

 

[fink]

Not necessarily. Firstly, it's not guaranteed that one would reach old age for this natural decline to take place.

Secondly having heard from older people, while there is some some natural decline it often isn't as pronounced as one might think - more that the desire remains but the availability is no longer so much there which leads often to frustration.

I really feel it is something that needs to be consciously worked on, which is where your broader world view would come in as to if it was indeed necessary and beneficial for your spiritual development as a motivator. Of course it would also be easier to motivate yourself in this direction if you are already old and aren't surrounded by strong sensual stimulus so much,but again with the pervasiveness of the internet, this is also not so easy to separate from now.

Everything you are saying has truth. I think my view right now leans more to existence always functions perfectly without us trying to control anything. In this kind of debate everybody is correct from their perspective and no one is getting hurt or trodden on.

So far my understanding of my spiritual development is zero in terms of intention. Whatever existence so far has taught me seems perfect.

 

[dithyramb]

Thank you dithy. Does that mean getting a vasectomy and still being sexually active achieves the same result?

I would also wonder if being decades in relationships arrives at the same place. With sex readily available does one not come to much more loving and much less urgent mindset naturally?

I have no knowledge on the details of what happens to the body after vasectomy, and this is very interesting.

Being in a decades long relationship in which the flame of love and connection through sex is not extinguished should definitely push one in the direction of sublimating base urges into higher energies, imo.

 

[northape]

It's from Tibetan subtle anatomy book. See how they position procreative fluids.
It would be very taxing to just casually empty your reserves.
Just another point of view from an old tradition.