Harmala alkaloids for beginners?

[halcyon]

SWIM is new the entire world of harmala alks. The closest SWIM has ever been to an MAOI is reading one of the zillion prescription warnings about contra-indications. Nonetheless, SWIM has been reading as much as possible (Pendell, Shulgin, etc) - but still has remaining questions. SWIM will jump in the pool. Feel free to post links if you know of older threads that were missed while SWIM was searching:

1. In reading about Pharmahuasca (SWIMs particular interest in regards to this subject) it seems like there are compounds which use anywhere between one and three of the alkaloids (Harmine, Harmaline, THH). There must be something about each one that has its purpose - SWIM just can't figure it out. According to posts on the nexus, it appears Harmaline is twice as powerful as Harmine. Where THH is, SWIM doesn't know. So, is the ideal pharmahuasca compound made from all three or will one or two suffice?

2. It seems to this intrepid reader that the harmala alks have their own psychoactive properties and can be appreciated on their own. Would anyone care to explain, roughly, how *most* people experience each of the three major harmaloids? From reading, it appears Harmine has a more of a stimulant (?) while Harmine is more of a dreamy narcotic-sedative at beyond pure MAOI doses. Where does THH fit into this mix?

3. Of the big three (SWIM is certain there must be many others) are certain ones preferred over others - or are they more like different spices (no pun) in the chef's kitchen? If SWIY enjoys the harmaloid experience - which one and why?

4. Please post pharma recipes as well!

{h}

 

[69ron]

SWIM is new the entire world of harmala alks. The closest SWIM has ever been to an MAOI is reading one of the zillion prescription warnings about contra-indications. Nonetheless, SWIM has been reading as much as possible (Pendell, Shulgin, etc) - but still has remaining questions. SWIM will jump in the pool. Feel free to post links if you know of older threads that were missed while SWIM was searching:

1. In reading about Pharmahuasca (SWIMs particular interest in regards to this subject) it seems like there are compounds which use anywhere between one and three of the alkaloids (Harmine, Harmaline, THH). There must be something about each one that has its purpose - SWIM just can't figure it out. According to posts on the nexus, it appears Harmaline is twice as powerful as Harmine. Where THH is, SWIM doesn't know. So, is the ideal pharmahuasca compound made from all three or will one or two suffice?

Pharmahuasca can consist of pretty much any MAOI capable of orally activating DMT. The harmala alkaloids, harmine, harmaline, and THH, are all able to orally activate DMT on their own. A mix is not needed, but a mix works a little better.

Harmaline is the most potent. This, and harmine, are the two main alkaloids of Peganum harmala. Harmaline is present in vary small amounts in Banisteriopsis caapi. So pharmahuasca that is high in harmaline will be a very different experience from real ayahuasca. Harmaline is the most potent MAOI active at 75-125 mg. It’s also the most sedating and mentally stoning of the three. Many people do not like harmaline.

Harmine is present in both Peganum harmala and Banisteriopsis caapi, often as the main or second most abundant alkaloid. It’s active as an MAOI in the 100-200 gm range. It’s more simulating than harmaline and not as stoning. Some people find it more psychedelic than harmaline. Pharmahuasca high in harmine is very similar to certain types of real ayahuasca.

Tetrahydroharmine is present in Banisteriopsis caapi sometimes as the main alkaloid, but more often in slightly lesser amounts than harmine. It’s present in very small amounts in Peganum harmala. Some Peganum harmala lacks this alkaloid. Tetrahydroharmine is active as an MAOI in the 100-200 mg range. Its effects are extremely mild compared with harmine and harmaline. It does not cause mental clouding like harmine or harmaline and tends to help you focus and gather your thoughts together. It’s more euphoric and generally more pleasant than harmine or harmaline. In the doses used for pharmahuasca it’s neither sedating nor stimulating. Most people prefer it over harmine and harmaline because it leaves you far more clear headed. Pharmahuasca high in harmine is very similar to certain types of real ayahuasca.

Authentic ayahuasca normally contains slightly more harmine then tetrahydroharmine, and very little harmaline.

2. It seems to this intrepid reader that the harmala alks have their own psychoactive properties and can be appreciated on their own. Would anyone care to explain, roughly, how *most* people experience each of the three major harmaloids? From reading, it appears Harmine has a more of a stimulant (?) while Harmine is more of a dreamy narcotic-sedative at beyond pure MAOI doses. Where does THH fit into this mix?

The psychoactive effects of harmine appear at doses of 200 mg and above. It’s slightly stimulating and at the same time mentally relaxing. You can have hallucinations that are dream like in content. The mind gets very scattered and easily drifts away from one thought to the next. It has very mild mental psychedelic effects.

Harmaline is psychoactive at 150 mg and up. It is similar to harmine but far more sedating. Its sedative effects are somewhat like marijuana. It’s much more dreamy and peaceful and causes more mental clouding than harmine.

Tetrahydroharmine is psychoactive at 350 mg and above. It becomes an LSD-like stimulant at psychoactive doses. It’s extremely difficult to describe. It has mild mental psychedelic effects that are a little similar to LSD, DMT, harmine, and harmaline. It’s more mentally psychedelic than harmine or harmaline and far more euphoric.

All three at psychoactive doses can cause nausea, loss of balance, and alteration in the perception of sound (especially tetrahydroharmine),

3. Of the big three (SWIM is certain there must be many others) are certain ones preferred over others - or are they more like different spices (no pun) in the chef's kitchen? If SWIY enjoys the harmaloid experience - which one and why?

Most people prefer tetrahydroharmine because it gives the pharmauasca a clearer cleaner headspace and adds psychedelic components to the trip not normally present.

The least preferred is usually harmaline because it clouds up the experience with its sedative mental fog.

Harmine is in the middle.

4. Please post pharma recipes as well!

SWIM’s favorite is 200 mg of THH with 20 mg of DMT. Next to that, 200 mg of harmine, with 25 mg of DMT. SWIM doesn’t much like harmaline with DMT. It’s better as a sleeping aid.

 

[halcyon]

Wow, 69ron, you never fail to be of help. Much thanks. Questions abound but one in particular is worth asking right now:

SWIM’s favorite is 200 mg of THH with 20 mg of DMT. Next to that, 200 mg of harmine, with 25 mg of DMT. SWIM doesn’t much like harmaline with DMT. It’s better as a sleeping aid.

Is the DMT figure for freebase or salt?

{h}

 

[The Traveler]

A few weeks ago I took my first journey with harmala alkoloids, extracted from Syrian rue. Before I only took the pharmahuasca journey with rue tea.

This journey was very deep but at the same time very mild for the body. I wasn't as sedated as I normally would be and walking around was possible (although I couldn't see a thing in the room due to OEV's, I had to use my hands to guide me).

Reason for this mild body load is probably because of these two things:
1. I only took 90mg rue extract (I don't like high doses since that will get my thoughts being stuck in a loop)
2. Two hours before the start of the journey I ate two sandwiches with cheese and a bowl of honey loops. This made the journey come on slightly slower as usual, a good thing IMHO since this will give you time to adapt to the changing environment.

After the ingestion of the pharmahuasca ingredients, it took about one hour and forty minutes to peak and it lasted about 2 hours before it was completely over. The amount of DMT I took was 90mg (same amount as the rue extract) of the slightly yellow kind.


69ron, thank you again for the clear explanation of the different harmala alkaloids.

 

[lebmug]

SWIM and his friend tried for some pharmahuasca recently, and got very little effect from 60-90mg DMT fumarate the first time and ~100mg DMT fumarate the second time. He thinks the problem was the MAOI which was one of those bottles of tincture you can get from IAS among other places. Two droppers the first time, and 4 the second time - they had read it was 75mg of alkaloids per droppper. Anyway, next time they'll extract their own. The effects on this were apparently mildly sedating and cloudy, which may well have been placebo - it must be said that the tincture worked well for potentiating mushrooms in the past, about 6-8 months ago.

 

[69ron]

Wow, 69ron, you never fail to be of help. Much thanks. Questions abound but one in particular is worth asking right now:

SWIM’s favorite is 200 mg of THH with 20 mg of DMT. Next to that, 200 mg of harmine, with 25 mg of DMT. SWIM doesn’t much like harmaline with DMT. It’s better as a sleeping aid.

Is the DMT figure for freebase or salt?

Concerning the DMT dosage, that is freebase, but the DMT dosage will vary dramatically from person to person. Some people need over 100 mg of DMT or they will hardly feel anything from the DMT. However the harmala dosage is pretty much the same for everyone and doesn’t vary that much.

 

[69ron]

SWIM and his friend tried for some pharmahuasca recently, and got very little effect from 60-90mg DMT fumarate the first time and ~100mg DMT fumarate the second time. He thinks the problem was the MAOI which was one of those bottles of tincture you can get from IAS among other places. Two droppers the first time, and 4 the second time - they had read it was 75mg of alkaloids per droppper. Anyway, next time they'll extract their own. The effects on this were apparently mildly sedating and cloudy, which may well have been placebo - it must be said that the tincture worked well for potentiating mushrooms in the past, about 6-8 months ago.

You may be one of those people that needs a large amount of DMT orally no matter how much MAOI is taken. The oral DMT dosage needed with an MAOI varies from person to person by as much as a factor of 10. For example, SWIM needs only 10 mg to feel it and 20 mg to have pretty strong psychedelic effects. He knows others who need 100 mg just to feel the DMT and 200 mg to have strong psychedelic effects.

Look at this poll Oral freebase DMT dosage poll - threshold visionary dose

In that poll, most people needed 75-150 mg of DMT for decent effects.