Harmala overdose - antidote ?

[intosamadhi]

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to antidote a hypertensive crisis caused by overdosing on harmalas?

I'm not talking about the fatal kind of overdose here, just the uncomfortable chaotic feverish condition that often develops if someone bites off more than they can chew.

I've done a couple oral dmt journeys with friends using extracted harmalas and have found the line between not enough for one person and too much for another hard to find. A dosage which has been perfect for me has sent others into the terror realms of chaos.

So I am wondering if there is anything i can give someone in such a condition to help them come back sooner. I know this goes against the 'doing the work' idea of spiritual development and that going through such uncomfortable experiences can actually build strength in a person, but i would still like the option to be able to spare someone the suffering / purging if thats at all possible.

So far i've only found 1 recommendation as a treatment for a hypertensive crisis - nifedipine. but this is prescription medication. Any other ideas ?

 

[dreamer042]

Hypertensive crisis = rapid and severe increase in blood pressure.

Are you sure this is what you mean to say? Did you measure the blood pressure of the participants?

If a person is experiencing a true hypertensive crisis (for most people this means measures above 180/110 on at least two separate tests, but varies depending on their baseline state) call an ambulance/have them seek medical attention immediately.

If the issue is simply the discomfort of dosing too high the best bet is to have them lay still, relax, and breathe their way through it. This is also the best way to coax out dream states from the higher doses like this, they may just find themselves amidst a delightful visionary experience before they know it with this method.

This is an important reminder that harmala doses vary wildly between individuals and it's generally a good idea to start with smaller doses and let people work their way up to finding their own individual dose. Harmalas stack really well so there is no need for all or nothing dosing with them.

 

[intosamadhi]

Hypertensive crisis = rapid and severe increase in blood pressure.

Are you sure this is what you mean to say? Did you measure the blood pressure of the participants?

Ok, so my terminology is not quite right ;-)

I am talking more about the feverish condition that comes on from taking just a bit too much. Where self-control goes out the window, movement becomes erratic and the behaviour becomes manic. It usually leaves the person in an overheated condition with exhaustion and headache. If its pushed further then lights start to flicker and there is also strong dizziness.

This i find only tends to happen with too much harmala. Adding more dmt just makes things brighter but not more 'out-of-control'.

I've been in enough of those states to know you just need to wait it out, but that that wait can be quite tortuous because it just keeps coming back again and again. I realise there can be benefits to this process, but i still wonder how much of it is actually inner work and how much is simply chemical imbalance. Or maybe the 2 are the same thing seen from different perspectives.

 

[GOD]

Not an attack just straight talk ---- >

Did i understand right ? You have some extacted " harmalas " and you dont know whats in the mixture and you dont know the strength and the doses werent weighed with at least a miligram scale ?

What did you extract them from ? How much ? How ? How much did the result weigh ?

Then people got frightened with all its symptoms and want an instant chemical reset button ? A button like that doesnt exist ....... and takeing advice from people in the net to ignore symtoms and just take another drug is not a good idea . Instead of masking symtoms it would be better to solve the original problem .

Maybe its a sign that you should be more carefull and more responsible ?

 

[jamie]

no offense, but if you have to come here and ask this, please stop giving this stuff to other people.

Stop doing this, until you don't need to ask us these questions any longer.

I am a firm believer that if you don't have like 50-100 experiences under your belt, you should not be dosing other people. If people want to do that, that's fine..but for you to be the one doing it for them, is risky...you are not experienced enough IMO to be doing this. Let them do the research and figure this out..and you do the same.

I don't think any kind of formal training is necessary..but personal experience is. 10, 20 etc experiences is not adequate. Until you yourself have been through the ringer and are familiar with all of these issues personally, and have ways to working through them, please do not give this stuff to other people.

 

[null24]

I'm with you 100percent on that, Jamie. There are many reasons someone would want to give this experience, from the egoistic to the altruistic but until one can with complete assurance know that they will respond well and beneficially to any of the myriad crises that can arise they should, as the op intimated ,do the work on themselves. This is life changing stuff and should not be handled lightly.

 

[MaNoMaNoM]

IMHO
several replies here have been not at all helpful, derailing, judgmental, and self serving.

OP only seems tobe trying tobe prepared for emergency, and learn the information needed.
Of course, experience is a necessity, but were you all born knowing every intricacy of DMT ??

OhK sorry, ina bad mood, love y'all lol. Just this could have been very useful information.

i don't have enough experience with harmalas to answer, and not in a hurry to overdose.

 

[intosamadhi]

IMHO
several replies here have been not at all helpful, derailing, judgmental, and self serving.

OP only seems tobe trying tobe prepared for emergency, and learn the information needed.
Of course, experience is a necessity, but were you all born knowing every intricacy of DMT ??

OhK sorry, ina bad mood, love y'all lol. Just this could have been very useful information.

i don't have enough experience with harmalas to answer, and not in a hurry to overdose.

Thanks MaNoMaNoM.

Quite a few projections and assumptions thrown my way. Seems people ignored my recognition of the beneficial aspects of the process as well.

Thanks anyway guys.

 

[Chan]

Seems people ignored my recognition of the beneficial aspects of the process as well and went straight for an attack.

Thanks anyway guys. I will continue my work on my own.

Well, this:

I'm not talking about the fatal kind of overdose here, just the uncomfortable chaotic feverish condition that often develops if someone bites off more than they can chew.

might have had something do to with it.

Your post raised several uncomfortable possibilities, none of which would benefit from any antidotes.

How does this sound to you:

"Me and my friends love whiskey. Only some of them black out, cuz they can't handle it. Is there anything I can give them to stop them blacking out, so they can stay awake, and drink more?"

 

[intosamadhi]

Not an attack just straight talk ---- >

Did i understand right ? You have some extacted " harmalas " and you dont know whats in the mixture and you dont know the strength and the doses werent weighed with at least a miligram scale ?

No, I know what I am serving and I have weighed and tested the doses on my self and my partner before doing it with a larger group. But the same dose that was blissful for us, was excessive for others.

I am well aware of how different peoples reactions to any substance (whether psychoactive or not) can be. My inquiry was simply to determine whether such states can be overridden or balanced out by the addition of some other element.

When I have read the 'side effects' of serotonin syndrome or what happens in a genuine hypertensive crisis (as Dreamer described it), it has made me contemplate whether a lot of these negative states could be coming from a 'chemical imbalance' (don't know how else to describe it) rather than some deep spiritual work.

Again it is only a contemplation. I have been through these states myself, and feel that passing through them has made me stronger. They almost always happened when i overdid the harmalas though and had less to do with the quantity of dmt.

Ps. No-one i have done this with has been traumatised or damaged in any way, and it is not a common occurrence. By the end the outcome has been positive even if the journey was a bit rough.

 

[intosamadhi]

Seems people ignored my recognition of the beneficial aspects of the process as well and went straight for an attack.

Thanks anyway guys. I will continue my work on my own.

Well, this:

I'm not talking about the fatal kind of overdose here, just the uncomfortable chaotic feverish condition that often develops if someone bites off more than they can chew.

might have had something do to with it.

Your post raised several uncomfortable possibilities, none of which would benefit from any antidotes.

How does this sound to you:

"Me and my friends love whiskey. Only some of them black out, cuz they can't handle it. Is there anything I can give them to stop them blacking out, so they can stay awake, and drink more?"

Thats not quite the connection I make when I re-read what I've written. I am not inquiring about doing something to keep going. Just something that might be able to calm down such a state if the person can't find a way to do it on their own. Maybe the wording 'bites off more than they can chew' is not an accurate way to put it.

In the group I am referring to with this post there were people for whom the same dose was not enough, some for whom it was just right and others for whom it was too much. But how to know which category a person falls under is virtually impossible, which is why I tried to ask for advice in order to help those who might fall under the latter. Body-weight is a good gauge but not an all determining factor IME.

 

[Chan]

My inquiry was simply to determine whether such states can be overridden or balanced out by the addition of some other element.

Since you ask, it is only my experience, but harmalas become easier to handle, over time, as you get rid of crap and stop taking so much of it in.

Obviously, that's not too help use if your buddy from out of state just rolls up one night, but that's just how it is, it's a process rather than a target.

People get prickly about "antidotes", cuz it just starts heading back to the whole uppers/downers dichotomy which destroyed a lot of good people. It's a fools path. Don't use one substance to treat another, or they'll both expect you to pay.*

*Synergies excepted!

 

[intosamadhi]

Since you ask, it is only my experience, but harmalas become easier to handle, over time, as you get rid of crap and stop taking so much of it in.

Yes I have found the same myself.

People get prickly about "antidotes", cuz it just starts heading back to the whole uppers/downers dichotomy which destroyed a lot of good people. It's a fools path. Don't use one substance to treat another, or they'll both expect you to pay.*

*Synergies excepted!

I understand that. I'm not even sure if i would use something like this if i had it, but I would at least like to know if there is an option to and feel it is a responsible and considerate thing to inquire about.

 

[Chan]

I'm not even sure if i would use something like this if i had it, but I would at least like to know if there is an option to and feel it is a responsible and considerate thing to inquire about.

With every medicine, comes more side-effects.

It's good that you're thinking of remedies, but it's still best not to get sick in the first place.

You do have a mg scale?

Adverse harmala/MAOI reactions can be minimised by careful eating/light fasting, just prior, but once I've taken harmalas, I'm extremely careful with what I take afterwards...

Time, bed, and curtains are the best healers for excessive harmala use, with a bucket nearby!

 

[intosamadhi]

It's good that you're thinking of remedies, but it's still best not to get sick in the first place.

I get that. I realise that the safest route is to start really small and work up slowly. Still, one can only do so much IME.

You do have a mg scale?

I do. But again, even if i were to go around asking everyone how much they weigh and then calculate their specific dose precision is always a bit fuzzy, because i can't forsee what their internal chemistry will do with such an amount.

Adverse harmala/MAOI reactions can be minimised by careful eating/light fasting, just prior, but once I've taken harmalas, I'm extremely careful with what I take afterwards...
Time, bed, and curtains are the best healers for excessive harmala use, with a bucket nearby!

Ya, the post experience effects are more easy to deal with. A little caffeine the day after also helps to remove a headache or heaviness. With using extracts most people I've been with have not had a need for the bucket, but i always keep them handy ;-)

 

[intosamadhi]

I'm with you 100percent on that, Jamie. There are many reasons someone would want to give this experience, from the egoistic to the altruistic but until one can with complete assurance know that they will respond well and beneficially to any of the myriad crises that can arise they should, as the op intimated ,do the work on themselves.

I respect this. I am not trying to play the role of some 'master shaman' or anything like that.

This is life changing stuff and should not be handled lightly.

Undoubtedly, and it is for this reason that I have even dared or risked to do this with others. These are friends of mine who want to do genuine spiritual work with these sacraments. So i've tried to provide a safe space for them to do that in, to the best of my ability.

I have been using on my own for years before doing it with a group and I hope that the mistakes I've made and the spaces I've been in have provided me with some small degree of experience that may be able to serve others.

 

[Chan]

one can only do so much IME

So, ease down! Allow others to take responsibility for their decisions.

Nobody here signed up to run a circus, even if they occasionally end up in one from time to time...

The other big variable, which is rarely acknowledged, is individual genetic coding for enzymes. You cannot easily diagnose that, and throwing meds at it, is not a solution either.

Usually, curanderos just let people sip their way in, until they stop.

 

[pitubo]

I don't understand some of the negative reactions at the start of the thread. I am glad that the nexus is a place where we can freely discuss these things and learn from each other's experiences.

Where does OP state that people are "dosed"? IMHO it is perfectly reasonable to share the experience with friends, if this is done in a responsible way, by all parties involved. The unmentioned alternative would be that people would need to learn everything alone by themself. How will that help in harm reduction at all?

Where does OP state to have "LOL; eyeballed some stuff I got from this dude I hardly know"?

Perhaps OP could have preeempted some of the consternation by writing down a more focussed question. Calling various forms of (possibly subjective) discomfort "hypertensive crisis" confuses the reader and may create an impression that the OP hasn't got his act together. That may explain to some of the assumptions expressed in the criticisms.

Variables that I think are relevant here and that I would like to have seen addressed at the start would be:

How much harmalas were part of a typical dose? How much DMT?

What was the source of the alkaloids? Rue? Caapi? What extent of purification or separation?

Were the participants well informed about the workings of RIMA's? Did they abstain from foodstuffs with potential interactions 3 to 4 hours before ingesting?

When doing a group session, it may be a good idea to start the session several hours before actually ingesting any actives. The time could be filled with a shared meal that does not include any interacting foodstuffs, followed by a good walk, preferrably in nature. A walk can give the stomach time to digest food and clear the gut. And a walk can also help to relax and clear the mind. Back at the space where the session will be held, some mild tea and a bit of meditation are the prelude to the session.

 

[universecannon]

I don't get some of the comments here. Have you all never journeyed with close friends before? It's not like he's hosting random people at his house and dosing them up playing shaman, healing all their ills and guiding them into the greatest depths of the spirit realms. Read his words and stop projecting so much please.

Dreamer and pitubo raise some good points and questions. Also inform your friends, if they don't know, not to resist the purge at all. This just tends to prolong any physical/mental agony in a big way. Laying down on your back very still while doing deep slow breathing in silent darkness, eyes closed, or with a gentle light nearby like a himalayan salt rock lamp, usually halts the dizziness for the most part...unless you take quite a lot.

Keep in mind as others have said that the amounts of harmalas/DMT for comparable effects vary wildly from person to person. What amounts are they taking? It might be good to keep a cold washcloth nearby if people really feel they are overheating. Diet is also a significant factor, and of course possible drug interactions are good to keep cautious about.

Music and cannabis have helped me navigate the rutts quite a bit but that's not necessarily for everyone, and some should avoid cannabis on certain psychedelics. For me on the comeup of lsd or mushrooms it's a big mistake but aya it seems ok for some reason.

 

[1ce]

I don't get some of the comments here. Have you all never journeyed with close friends before? It's not like he's hosting random people at his house and dosing them up playing shaman, healing all their ills and guiding them into the greatest depths of the spirit realms. Read his words and stop projecting so much please.

Dreamer and pitubo raise some good points and questions. Also inform your friends, if they don't know, not to resist the purge at all. This just tends to prolong any physical/mental agony in a big way. Laying down on your back very still while doing deep slow breathing in silent darkness, eyes closed, or with a gentle light nearby like a himalayan salt rock lamp, usually halts the dizziness for the most part...unless you take quite a lot.

Keep in mind as others have said that the amounts of harmalas/DMT for comparable effects vary wildly from person to person. What amounts are they taking? It might be good to keep a cold washcloth nearby if people really feel they are overheating. Diet is also a significant factor, and of course possible drug interactions are good to keep cautious about.

Music and cannabis have helped me navigate the rutts quite a bit but that's not necessarily for everyone, and some should avoid cannabis on certain psychedelics. For me on the comeup of lsd or mushrooms it's a big mistake but aya it seems ok for some reason.

Mustard-water and charcoal