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Harmalas basics overview for a beginner?

O

onward33

Esteemed member
Please forgive me if much of this has been asked and answered. I get the sense much of this information has in various threads, but it hasn't been collected into general comprehensive overview and while I've done a fair amount of searching the nexus first, Im feeling a bit overwhelmed.

Im wondering if there's a basic, somewhat comprehensive overview of the effects of harmalas and various methods of administration. Im a fairly experienced psychedelic explorer but I have no experience with harmalas. Im working on making Changa for the first time, Im curious about harmalas on their own, and Im also super interested in pharma/ayahuasca. It seems like harmalas used for these various purposes/cases each have their nuances and it's a bit confusing.

Here are some of the questions I have - and for the purposes of these questions, Im asking mainly about caapi and rue extracts as those are the plants I'd have access to.

1. What are the desired effects of taking harmalas alone, without additional psychedelics? I want to try them to experience them without additional substances before mixing them, and I see some people like to do this on its own merit, but I don't see a general overview of what the desired effects are and their duration (onset, peak, offset).

2. What methods of administration exist for harmala extract (full spectrum and isolated harmine/harmaline)? I've read sublingual and that it's possible to mix into a tea... do you just put the extract under your tongue / steep in hot water, respectively? Can you just smoke or vape the extracted harmalas? Can you just dissolve in water and drink? Is there an overview somewhere for routes of administration and the pros/cons of each?

3. Is there an overview of the best way to administer harmalas respective to each of the various purposes (ie harmalas on their own vs pharmahuasca)?

4. Is there an overview of the different ways to prepare harmalas for consumption (ie extraction, tea, brew) and the pros/cons of each?

Bonus question: Im well aware of the risks of harmalas mixed with SSRIs. About how long after ceasing SSRIs should one wait before considering taking harmalas? I am almost done tapering, under my doctors care, SSRIs that Ive been taking for 7 years. I want to be very careful not to take MAOIs too soon after ceasing completely; giving myself an extra buffer. I understand the combo is dangerous and don't want to dabble in dangerous waters. Any other dangers I should know about?

Thanks in advance and please feel free to direct me if these questions are already answered. It seems like so many other topics on this site have a great overview / faq thread already but I couldn't find an equivalent in this space.

-- Onward
 
1. What are the desired effects of taking harmalas alone, without additional psychedelics? I want to try them to experience them without additional substances before mixing them, and I see some people like to do this on its own merit, but I don't see a general overview of what the desired effects are and their duration (onset, peak, offset).
- This depends a lot on dose and ROA. Generally at lower doses the desired effect is similar to that of anti-depressants or mood stabilizers, anxiolytic effects, mood boost, increased focus. At moderate doses it can facilitate a bit more of a creativity boost, be kinda of stoning and dreamy, and generally keep the energy flowing. At the higher doses it can induce dreamstreams and visionary states (without adding other psychedelics) but can be fairly physically uncomfortable. Duration is generally around 4-6 hours for oral doses, slightly less for sublingual maybe 2-4, and maybe 1-2 smoked/vaped. The dose response curve is pretty typical, but people vary widely in sensitivity (one person can be floored at 100 mg and another person may not feel anything till 250-300 mg).

2. What methods of administration exist for harmala extract (full spectrum and isolated harmine/harmaline)? I've read sublingual and that it's possible to mix into a tea... do you just put the extract under your tongue / steep in hot water, respectively? Can you just smoke or vape the extracted harmalas? Can you just dissolve in water and drink? Is there an overview somewhere for routes of administration and the pros/cons of each?
- You can brew caapi or syrian rue into a tea and drink it that way, or you can take extracted alkaloids. With extracted alkaloids you either have a salt form (better for eating, snuffing, sublingual) or a freebase form (better for smoking/vaping). Salts are water soluble and can be put in a drink, freebase is not but can be dissolved in something acidic (converting it to a salt). You can sublingual freebase but it's a bit hard on the soft tissue to apply basic compounds directly like that. There is some difference in effect between the isolated compounds harmine/harmaline/thh and the full spectrum. Generally harmine is more gentle, needs a little higher dose and is more clear headed. Hamaline is more stoning, more potent by weight, and can be a more forceful in effect. The full spectrum is generally a nice balance. THH alone is a mild SSRI and seems to work best in conjunction with other harmalas.

3. Is there an overview of the best way to administer harmalas respective to each of the various purposes (ie harmalas on their own vs pharmahuasca)?
- Once you introduce a tryptamine like DMT (aya, pharma) or psilocybin, it will be a full on psychedelic experience vs what may be a more stoning or visionary experience with higher doses of harmalas alone. Both routes have value, it just depends on what type of experience you are looking for.

4. Is there an overview of the different ways to prepare harmalas for consumption (ie extraction, tea, brew) and the pros/cons of each?
- The wiki has several exraction teks, and the Preparations and Methods of Administration forum has dedicated subforums for the various approaches (aya, pharma, changa). The stickies are a good place to start for getting into the details and pros and cons of each method. Again it's really down to personal preference: brew/tea is simple to make and is a whole plant medicine, extraction/pharma allows more precise dosing and is easier to take, changa is potent, fast acting, and short duration while still being slower and more manageable than vaping/smoking freebase DMT alone.
Bonus question: Im well aware of the risks of harmalas mixed with SSRIs. About how long after ceasing SSRIs should one wait before considering taking harmalas?
- It depends on the specific SSRI, but a good rule of thumb for medication interaction is to wait 7 half lives before taking a potentially contraindicated medication. If you are comfortable with talking to your doctor about it you could ask directly when you'd be safe to take an MAO inhibitor (you can say you are considering st. john's wort, or a passionflower extract or something if you don't want to mention harmalas or similar RIMA's like Moclobemide). Other things to avoid would indlude serotonin releasers like MDMA and precursors like tryptophan and 5-HTP as well as stimulants and certain herbs (like St. John's Wort).
 
I just add that extraction of harmalas is simple and easy, ideal way of starting someone's plant extraction journey. 😉
 
dreamer042 said:
1. What are the desired effects of taking harmalas alone, without additional psychedelics? I want to try them to experience them without additional substances before mixing them, and I see some people like to do this on its own merit, but I don't see a general overview of what the desired effects are and their duration (onset, peak, offset).
- This depends a lot on dose and ROA. Generally at lower doses the desired effect is similar to that of anti-depressants or mood stabilizers, anxiolytic effects, mood boost, increased focus. At moderate doses it can facilitate a bit more of a creativity boost, be kinda of stoning and dreamy, and generally keep the energy flowing. At the higher doses it can induce dreamstreams and visionary states (without adding other psychedelics) but can be fairly physically uncomfortable. Duration is generally around 4-6 hours for oral doses, slightly less for sublingual maybe 2-4, and maybe 1-2 smoked/vaped. The dose response curve is pretty typical, but people vary widely in sensitivity (one person can be floored at 100 mg and another person may not feel anything till 250-300 mg).

2. What methods of administration exist for harmala extract (full spectrum and isolated harmine/harmaline)? I've read sublingual and that it's possible to mix into a tea... do you just put the extract under your tongue / steep in hot water, respectively? Can you just smoke or vape the extracted harmalas? Can you just dissolve in water and drink? Is there an overview somewhere for routes of administration and the pros/cons of each?
- You can brew caapi or syrian rue into a tea and drink it that way, or you can take extracted alkaloids. With extracted alkaloids you either have a salt form (better for eating, snuffing, sublingual) or a freebase form (better for smoking/vaping). Salts are water soluble and can be put in a drink, freebase is not but can be dissolved in something acidic (converting it to a salt). You can sublingual freebase but it's a bit hard on the soft tissue to apply basic compounds directly like that. There is some difference in effect between the isolated compounds harmine/harmaline/thh and the full spectrum. Generally harmine is more gentle, needs a little higher dose and is more clear headed. Hamaline is more stoning, more potent by weight, and can be a more forceful in effect. The full spectrum is generally a nice balance. THH alone is a mild SSRI and seems to work best in conjunction with other harmalas.

3. Is there an overview of the best way to administer harmalas respective to each of the various purposes (ie harmalas on their own vs pharmahuasca)?
- Once you introduce a tryptamine like DMT (aya, pharma) or psilocybin, it will be a full on psychedelic experience vs what may be a more stoning or visionary experience with higher doses of harmalas alone. Both routes have value, it just depends on what type of experience you are looking for.

4. Is there an overview of the different ways to prepare harmalas for consumption (ie extraction, tea, brew) and the pros/cons of each?
- The wiki has several exraction teks, and the Preparations and Methods of Administration forum has dedicated subforums for the various approaches (aya, pharma, changa). The stickies are a good place to start for getting into the details and pros and cons of each method. Again it's really down to personal preference: brew/tea is simple to make and is a whole plant medicine, extraction/pharma allows more precise dosing and is easier to take, changa is potent, fast acting, and short duration while still being slower and more manageable than vaping/smoking freebase DMT alone.
Bonus question: Im well aware of the risks of harmalas mixed with SSRIs. About how long after ceasing SSRIs should one wait before considering taking harmalas?
- It depends on the specific SSRI, but a good rule of thumb for medication interaction is to wait 7 half lives before taking a potentially contraindicated medication. If you are comfortable with talking to your doctor about it you could ask directly when you'd be safe to take an MAO inhibitor (you can say you are considering st. john's wort, or a passionflower extract or something if you don't want to mention harmalas or similar RIMA's like Moclobemide). Other things to avoid would indlude serotonin releasers like MDMA and precursors like tryptophan and 5-HTP as well as stimulants and certain herbs (like St. John's Wort).
Click to expand...

Awesome. Thanks so much for the detailed answer, very helpful. I appreciate you spending the time. Answers a lot of my questions. A couple followups:

- When performing an extraction from rue or caapi, is the resulting product almost always freebase? Or can it be salt, depending on the tek used to extract?
- If answer to question 1 is freebase, other than just dissolving in acidic drink like OJ, how does one convert to a salt?
- Relatedly, is it as simple as dissolving in OJ and drinking? That seemed to be my understanding when researching the pharmahuasca threads.
- Can you vape freebase using an emesh and if not what's a better method?
 
- When performing an extraction from rue or caapi, is the resulting product almost always freebase? Or can it be salt, depending on the tek used to extract?
- It can be either a salt or freebase depending on tek/method. The manske will yield a hydrochloride salt and a base precipitation will yield a freebase. You can theoretically dissolve freebase in any acidic liquid for your chosen salt (citrate, ascorbate, fumarate, acetate, benzoate, etc). The teks cover these processes well.

- If answer to question 1 is freebase, other than just dissolving in acidic drink like OJ, how does one convert to a salt?
- Manske is most common, basically dissolve it in vinegar water and add salt (sodium chloride) to precipitate hydrocholoride salts, but really dissolving in any acidic liquid will create a salt form.

- Relatedly, is it as simple as dissolving in OJ and drinking? That seemed to be my understanding when researching the pharmahuasca threads.
- It is, but harmalas are pretty bitter so it's not going to be a very tasty juice, so keep that in mind. You can always capsule it to avoid the taste.

- Can you vape freebase using an emesh and if not what's a better method?
- I don't have direct experience vaping harmalas with emesh, but it should work fine. They vape at a pretty high temperature, so you'll need higher wattage/more time as compared to something like DMT. While not as healthy for the lungs, the gold standard is to actually combust them. They top a cannabis bowl well, sprinkle nicely into a joint, or of course, you can make changa.
 
onward33 said:
Please forgive me if much of this has been asked and answered. I get the sense much of this information has in various threads, but it hasn't been collected into general comprehensive overview and while I've done a fair amount of searching the nexus first, Im feeling a bit overwhelmed.

Im wondering if there's a basic, somewhat comprehensive overview of the effects of harmalas and various methods of administration. Im a fairly experienced psychedelic explorer but I have no experience with harmalas. Im working on making Changa for the first time, Im curious about harmalas on their own, and Im also super interested in pharma/ayahuasca. It seems like harmalas used for these various purposes/cases each have their nuances and it's a bit confusing.

Here are some of the questions I have - and for the purposes of these questions, Im asking mainly about caapi and rue extracts as those are the plants I'd have access to.

1. What are the desired effects of taking harmalas alone, without additional psychedelics? I want to try them to experience them without additional substances before mixing them, and I see some people like to do this on its own merit, but I don't see a general overview of what the desired effects are and their duration (onset, peak, offset).

2. What methods of administration exist for harmala extract (full spectrum and isolated harmine/harmaline)? I've read sublingual and that it's possible to mix into a tea... do you just put the extract under your tongue / steep in hot water, respectively? Can you just smoke or vape the extracted harmalas? Can you just dissolve in water and drink? Is there an overview somewhere for routes of administration and the pros/cons of each?

3. Is there an overview of the best way to administer harmalas respective to each of the various purposes (ie harmalas on their own vs pharmahuasca)?

4. Is there an overview of the different ways to prepare harmalas for consumption (ie extraction, tea, brew) and the pros/cons of each?

Bonus question: Im well aware of the risks of harmalas mixed with SSRIs. About how long after ceasing SSRIs should one wait before considering taking harmalas? I am almost done tapering, under my doctors care, SSRIs that Ive been taking for 7 years. I want to be very careful not to take MAOIs too soon after ceasing completely; giving myself an extra buffer. I understand the combo is dangerous and don't want to dabble in dangerous waters. Any other dangers I should know about?

Thanks in advance and please feel free to direct me if these questions are already answered. It seems like so many other topics on this site have a great overview / faq thread already but I couldn't find an equivalent in this space.

-- Onward
Click to expand...

Thanks for asking these questions. I've extracted harmalas from Syrian Rue, but I still had basic questions about consuming it.
 
Try this one ( Link ), eventhough it's designed for caapi, it's very well written, helps with understanding of the whole process. Rue and caapi extractions are very similar.
This is directly for rue, includes also Manske step: Link 2
 
dreamer042 said:
1. What are the desired effects of taking harmalas alone, without additional psychedelics? I want to try them to experience them without additional substances before mixing them, and I see some people like to do this on its own merit, but I don't see a general overview of what the desired effects are and their duration (onset, peak, offset).
- This depends a lot on dose and ROA. Generally at lower doses the desired effect is similar to that of anti-depressants or mood stabilizers, anxiolytic effects, mood boost, increased focus. At moderate doses it can facilitate a bit more of a creativity boost, be kinda of stoning and dreamy, and generally keep the energy flowing. At the higher doses it can induce dreamstreams and visionary states (without adding other psychedelics) but can be fairly physically uncomfortable. Duration is generally around 4-6 hours for oral doses, slightly less for sublingual maybe 2-4, and maybe 1-2 smoked/vaped. The dose response curve is pretty typical, but people vary widely in sensitivity (one person can be floored at 100 mg and another person may not feel anything till 250-300 mg).

2. What methods of administration exist for harmala extract (full spectrum and isolated harmine/harmaline)? I've read sublingual and that it's possible to mix into a tea... do you just put the extract under your tongue / steep in hot water, respectively? Can you just smoke or vape the extracted harmalas? Can you just dissolve in water and drink? Is there an overview somewhere for routes of administration and the pros/cons of each?
- You can brew caapi or syrian rue into a tea and drink it that way, or you can take extracted alkaloids. With extracted alkaloids you either have a salt form (better for eating, snuffing, sublingual) or a freebase form (better for smoking/vaping). Salts are water soluble and can be put in a drink, freebase is not but can be dissolved in something acidic (converting it to a salt). You can sublingual freebase but it's a bit hard on the soft tissue to apply basic compounds directly like that. There is some difference in effect between the isolated compounds harmine/harmaline/thh and the full spectrum. Generally harmine is more gentle, needs a little higher dose and is more clear headed. Hamaline is more stoning, more potent by weight, and can be a more forceful in effect. The full spectrum is generally a nice balance. THH alone is a mild SSRI and seems to work best in conjunction with other harmalas.

3. Is there an overview of the best way to administer harmalas respective to each of the various purposes (ie harmalas on their own vs pharmahuasca)?
- Once you introduce a tryptamine like DMT (aya, pharma) or psilocybin, it will be a full on psychedelic experience vs what may be a more stoning or visionary experience with higher doses of harmalas alone. Both routes have value, it just depends on what type of experience you are looking for.

4. Is there an overview of the different ways to prepare harmalas for consumption (ie extraction, tea, brew) and the pros/cons of each?
- The wiki has several exraction teks, and the Preparations and Methods of Administration forum has dedicated subforums for the various approaches (aya, pharma, changa). The stickies are a good place to start for getting into the details and pros and cons of each method. Again it's really down to personal preference: brew/tea is simple to make and is a whole plant medicine, extraction/pharma allows more precise dosing and is easier to take, changa is potent, fast acting, and short duration while still being slower and more manageable than vaping/smoking freebase DMT alone.
Bonus question: Im well aware of the risks of harmalas mixed with SSRIs. About how long after ceasing SSRIs should one wait before considering taking harmalas?
- It depends on the specific SSRI, but a good rule of thumb for medication interaction is to wait 7 half lives before taking a potentially contraindicated medication. If you are comfortable with talking to your doctor about it you could ask directly when you'd be safe to take an MAO inhibitor (you can say you are considering st. john's wort, or a passionflower extract or something if you don't want to mention harmalas or similar RIMA's like Moclobemide). Other things to avoid would indlude serotonin releasers like MDMA and precursors like tryptophan and 5-HTP as well as stimulants and certain herbs (like St. John's Wort).
Click to expand...
After some time, I have a few followup questions, thanks again for the help.

1. Related to my original question #2 and 4, Can I capsule freebase rue harmala extract and eat (ahead of a pharma or vaped DMT experience) or does it have to be a salt? Is it too hard on the stomach if freebase compared to salt form or does it not have the same effect as salt form when eaten? based on my research for predosing harmala you can either smoke it or eat it or drink it but which form is best for eating or drinking it is my only real question here... EDIT: I feel like after reading some info on DMT fumarate that I have the answers I need for this question, which is that either freebase or salt can be consumed orally with an MAOI, but salt is most likely easier on the stomach. Please correct me if Im wrong.

2. Related to my original bonus question, The half life of fluoxetine is 1-6 days, but it also has a metabolite called norfluoxetine which has a halflife of 7-15 days, according to internets. Im not comfortable talking about my psychedelic use w/my doctor, and Im leaning towards erring on the waiting 7 half lives x 15 days half life of norfluoxetine (85 days) to be safe, but does anyone know if the metabolite norfluoxetine would also be dangerous in the same way fluoxetine would? I assume norfluoxetine would also be an SSRI but I don't know how it works and have no intention of trying to fuck around and find out.
 
Last edited:
1. You are right, both can be consumed. And freebase harmalas aren't as rough for the stomach as freebase DMT.

2. That's an excellent point. Reading on norfluoxetine, it's indeed a SSRI that is used as antidepressant by itself as well. It seems to be the main active metabolite of fluoxetine. Definitely wait for 85 days instead. Good job on looking out for your safety.
 
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