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HDPE & Solvents

Migrated topic.
Pup Tentacle

Pup Tentacle

lettuce
I've seen a number of threads lately referring to using solvents such as xylene and toluene in HDPE containers. Perhaps a sticky in appropriate places reminding that you can pull nasties out of the plastic that way - or something of that nature might be considered?

I just don't want to see well meaning travelers make themselves sick.
 
sick?
how much hdpe plastic would one have to consume to get sick?

how much hdpe is going to absorb into xylene- and then make it into a finished crystaline product?

degraded plastic vessels are one thing- health risk yet another :)

Acute Toxicity.

Mice fed 2.5 g of unstabilized Ziegler HDPE powder/kg BW and powder stabilized either with gas black, amine compounds and calcium stearate, or with benzophenone derivatives and calcium stearate in their diet, developed no changes in their general condition or BW gain. Histology of the visceral organs was insignificantly different from that in the controls.;
Short-term Toxicity. 1.25 to 100% Marlex-50 Ziegler HDPE was added to the diet of male and female rats. No manifestations of toxic action were observed. 5
Long-term Toxicity. Administration of extracts (10 cm-1; 20 and 60°C; 10 days) from several Ziegler HDPE specimens with small quantities of chlorides, aluminum, and titanium ions to mice and rats over a period of 16 to 19 months caused slight transient changes in BW gain, STI, behavior, and relative weights of visceral organs. Histological examination revealed no changes attributed to the action of extracts.


honestly- the solvent you are using seems more likely to add toxins into your system
or the gas you pump in your car daily-etc
 
I don't bring it up to tell anyone what to do but the Nexus does seem to be home to a quite a few folks who regard plastic and solvents to be a bad idea, myself being one.

Quote from Snozzleberry the other day in a post about this very topic...

SnozzleBerry said:
None of them.

Use glass :)

Phillips lists two major classes of chemicals that are not compatible with HDPE: aromatic hydrocarbons, and halogenated hydrocarbons. The basic aromatic hydrocarbon is benzene (a major component of gasoline); others are toluene (also called methylbenzene), and the three xylenes (o-, m-and p-xylene). Others include naphthalene (moth balls), and pdichlorobenzene (also moth balls). These aromatic hydrocarbons "permeate excessively and cause package deformation," says Phillips.
Click to expand...

Source
Click to expand...

The thread...


There are other threads.

So I put it out there. It doesn't seem safe to me. I wanted to mention it. If a mod feels this is an unwarranted fear, please just delete this thread.

Peace
 
no need to delete this thread. i was just offering fodder for the debate. and my opinion :)

is there evidence that hdpe can be degraded by nps like xylene?yes
is there evidence that small amounts of hdpe get absorbed into xylene? yes
is there evidence trace amounts can make it into a crystaline extract? please show me
is there evidence that hdpe in minute amounts is toxic(dangerous) to us? please show me

i realize there are many here worried about chemical exposure- why would anyone that concerned even use xylene anyways?
 
There is also evidence that HDPE can be degraded by d-limonene and MANY concerned use that.

It's enough for ME to know that an NPS can degrade a plastic and that that NPS is in contact with the substances I'm putting into my body.

I'm more of a "prove to me it doesn't harm me before I use it" than a "prove to me it DOES harm me and then I'll stop using it" kinda guy.

For others it may not be a concern. So be it.

My point was really - isn't it worth mentioning that it could be a vector for contamination? Erring on the side of caution surely can't be a bad thing for those that are concerned? Don't you think?

Anywhoo, all good points dg.

Much love and respect,
PT
 
dg said:
is there evidence that hdpe can be degraded by nps like xylene?yes
is there evidence that small amounts of hdpe get absorbed into xylene? yes
Click to expand...

Well then, these two questions should be enough reasons to avoid using xylene or any other solvent that will degrade HDPE.

dg said:
is there evidence trace amounts can make it into a crystaline extract? please show me
is there evidence that hdpe in minute amounts is toxic(dangerous) to us? please show me
Click to expand...

These claims are no valid reasons as to why using solvents that degrade plastics can still be safely. There is evidence that the plastics leak into the solvent and from there it's a small step to end up in your final product. Will there be plastics in the final product? Hard to say, but from the perspective of harm reduction this is enough reason to avoid the use of plastic vessels for extractions because we cannot prove or disprove that plastics end up in the final product. As such, it is safer to assume that it plastic will end up in the final product than that there will be no plastics.

Consider this: you're on vacation abroad and you rent a car. As you put the keys into the car and start the engine the car immediately fills itself with exhaust fumes. The man from the rental company tells you that the fumes are perfectly safe and that if you keep the windows open you won't have any issues with it. Would you rent the car? I sure as hell know I wouldn't because there is no way to prove that the fumes are indeed safe or that the car has no further shortcomings.

The same goes with your extractions. It is safer to assume that plastics will end up in your end product when working with hpde and said solvents. It is better to assume that things are dangerous/toxic until proven otherwise instead of the vice versa. "Putting your hand inside a meat grinder is perfectly safe because I've never seen anyone lose their hand in one".
 
speaking of harm reduction-
I stopped using glass for the extraction vessel when a 5gal carboy cracked and spilled ph14 material and xylene all over the place.
I got lye burns- and much exposure to nps in a short time. not to mention loss of starting material

personally never seen the hdpe 5 gal buckets i use show any sign of deterioration at all (not talking about long term storage)
although several months of contact didn't degrade the hdpe to any noticeable degree.
 
"safety first. " why not?
Its not hard for the long run to use glassware (containers , funnels, etc..) and the appropriate personal protection: Nitrile gloves, Goggles, and a mask (the ones with real filters, not the paper ones..)
People are dealing with dangerous chemicals and psychedelic substances here… serious stuff. If I was to do such a thing I would certainly use the best materials I could .
 
dg, my point in bringing this up wasn't to stop you or anyone from using whatever vessels they'd like to for science experiments.

My point wasn't that I'm a scientist with equipment and know-how at my command to prove to anyone who asks what trace compounds may or may not be floating around in their end product.

My point wasn't to debate the safety of NPS in plastic.

My point was to suggest that the Nexus maybe make more of an effort to inform people about the possible hazards of NPS in plastic.

So then I ask you, what is the negative side to informing people of this?

I don't understand why there's a debate here over keeping people informed of a potential hazard. It doesn't cost money. It doesn't restrict anyone's freedom.

Please explain to me the negative side(s) of informing people of potential chemical hazards. Perhaps there are angles I'm not considering.

Peace & Blessings,
PT
 
My xylene came in a plastic hdpe container also and it was from a professional company.. surely they wouldnt want contamination? everything they have sent has been incredibly well packaged, hydrochloric acid came in heavy duty dark glass containers. is there something being missed here? either by us or them...
 
highRvibratoryfreq said:
My xylene came in a plastic hdpe container also and it was from a professional company.. surely they wouldnt want contamination?
Click to expand...
It also depends on what you want to use this xylene for.

For general lab work (think of cleaning or other works that do not depend on using clean xylene), a plastic container that holds xylene well is more than good. But if you intend to use it to manufacture a product that will be consumed by humans or you need to do analytical work etc, selling xylene in plastic is unacceptable.
 
^but they sell analytical xylene in hdpe containers!!!
if there were traces of hdpe in the end testing- that'd be an issue. right?
but apparently it is not.

Pup
"My point was to suggest that the Nexus maybe make more of an effort to inform people about the possible hazards of NPS in plastic."

^ ok- here at the nex we ask for proof. where is the proof of hazard?
otherwise this is just another conspiracy thread to be deleted!!
 
dg said:
^ ok- here at the nex we ask for proof. where is the proof of hazard?
otherwise this is just another conspiracy thread to be deleted!!
Click to expand...
Can we please not be silly? At least, not when it comes to harm reduction?

Here is the proof:

Phillips lists two major classes of chemicals that are not compatible with HDPE: aromatic hydrocarbons, and halogenated hydrocarbons. The basic aromatic hydrocarbon is benzene (a major component of gasoline); others are toluene (also called methylbenzene), and the three xylenes (o-, m-and p-xylene). Others include naphthalene (moth balls), and pdichlorobenzene (also moth balls). These aromatic hydrocarbons "permeate excessively and cause package deformation," says Phillips. http://www.lindane.org/lindane/lindane_dump.htm
Click to expand...

The company that makes HDPE states that these solvents permeate excessively and cause package deformation...there are documented cases of HDPE extraction vessels failing or becoming incredibly thin when exposed to these solvents...there are documented cases of HDPE landfill liners failing in the presence of these solvents.

I guess the question is...what makes you so sure that it is safe that you contradict the statements by the manufacturer and ridicule the people who suggest using HDPE may introduce unwanted products into your extraction? From a harm reduction standpoint, this is puzzling.
 
i'm sorry- when have i ridiculed anyone?? is disagreeing w/ opinion considered ridicule?

the fact is- analytical lab grade aromatic solvents are shipped and stored in hdpe containers.

\still yet to see any proof of hazard

or can you provide proof of hazardous "toxicity" ??

w/o some kind of evidence- this seems like a ct thread.
 
dg said:
i'm sorry- when have i ridiculed anyone?? is disagreeing w/ opinion considered ridicule?
Click to expand...
ridicule:
Noun - The subjection of someone or something to mockery and derision.
Verb - Subject to mockery and derision.

dg said:
^ ok- here at the nex we ask for proof. where is the proof of hazard?
otherwise this is just another conspiracy thread to be deleted!!
Click to expand...

Phillips states that Xylene, Toluene, Benzene, etc. degrade HDPE (read: dissolve, to varying degrees). When a solvent dissolves a material, that material winds up in the solvent. When that solvent is then evaporated, the materials that were once dissolved in that solvent remain. This is not a ct, this is simple logic, which you are deriding (read: ridiculing).

Do I have absolute proof that HDPE traces are present in DMT that has been freeze precipitated or salted out of solvents exposed to HDPE? No. But, you're missing the point.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, and as far as harm reduction, your position is undeniably less defensible. If we know that HDPE leaches into these solvents (per the manufacturer's statements) why insist on using the material until it's shown to be harmful? Is it not safer and more prudent to refrain from using the material until it's shown to be safe?
 
Analytical work with HPDE-containing work is most probably fine, as long as you also use xylene straight out of the container as a "blank" control. Any contaminants will then even out. It was my mistake to mention "analytical work" above.

But I believe the point that remains is that if you want to use solvents to manufacture something for human consumption (or use them on humans directly, like essential oils) HDPE is far poorer choice.

There are two sides on solvent and container issue:

1. Glass, that is equivocally considered the safest option for solvent storage from all professionals and

2. HDPE, for which concerns have been raised by many, so better to exercise caution.
 
dg said:
Pup
"My point was to suggest that the Nexus maybe make more of an effort to inform people about the possible hazards of NPS in plastic."

^ ok- here at the nex we ask for proof. where is the proof of hazard?
otherwise this is just another conspiracy thread to be deleted!!
Click to expand...

I contend it's conspiracy theory to say there are no contaminants in the end product from HDPE. Prove it to me there are not.

Prove that, and I'll drop this torch, and bring you cookies. ( Or a healthier alternative if you prefer ;) )

The possible end result is directly related to more than just the success or failure of a science experiment. It directly relates to human health. That's a much higher stake in my opinion and worth the extra caution.

Much respect,
PT
 
In all laboratory storage rooms you will find that the strong bases like sodium hydroxide are stored in HDPE. This is because glass is sensitive to strong bases and over time will weaken them to the point of breaking apart. That being said, in my extractions I use glass exclusively. The amount of time the basic solution spends in the glass jar is not long enough to damage the glass, especially if you are using a sturdy container.

edit: organic solvents should always be avoided when using HDPE, they do pull out all sorts of plasticizers and you dont want these in your final product.
 
dg said:
Mice fed 2.5 g of unstabilized Ziegler HDPE powder/kg BW and powder stabilized either with gas black, amine compounds and calcium stearate, or with benzophenone derivatives and calcium stearate in their diet, developed no changes in their general condition or BW gain. Histology of the visceral organs was insignificantly different from that in the controls.;
Short-term Toxicity. 1.25 to 100% Marlex-50 Ziegler HDPE was added to the diet of male and female rats. No manifestations of toxic action were observed. 5
Long-term Toxicity. Administration of extracts (10 cm-1; 20 and 60°C; 10 days) from several Ziegler HDPE specimens with small quantities of chlorides, aluminum, and titanium ions to mice and rats over a period of 16 to 19 months caused slight transient changes in BW gain, STI, behavior, and relative weights of visceral organs. Histological examination revealed no changes attributed to the action of extracts.


honestly- the solvent you are using seems more likely to add toxins into your system
or the gas you pump in your car daily-etc
Click to expand...

I would check to see who funded this study before making statements like you end with here. Remember that plastics are a big industry and they can make the experiments say what they want to. Just a thought. Big tobacco and the company Monsanto come to mind.
 
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