HDPE & Solvents

[Infundibulum]

^^
Well, let's not go into ad hominems here; all studies are presumed honest to the best of our knowledge unless proven otherwise. The study above can be criticised as is, for instance one can say that even though the HDPE powder per se is not toxic, phthalates leaching out of HDPE and can contaminate an extraction end product are toxic. Or that the toxicity was tested in rats and not humans.

I really like that dg is pushing the argument because that's how we are forced to further investigate the issue and in fact it is very stimulating. But I am afraid that regardless of how many studies one can quote, and regardless that for every study one can quote in favour, the next person can quote a study against, the fact remains that stuff leaches from plastic to solvents and that in glass you do not have this issue.

I believe more argument over the issue won't bring anything new and it is best left to the judgement of each person whether to use HDPE or glass. As dg said in another (or was it this?) thread, glass can break leading to massive dreadful scenarios, and everyone will be hard pressed to convince me otherwise on this inherent risk of glass. Glass has also to be of the highest quality to sustain chemical etching, mechanical damage or even accumulation of micro structure damages. I can come to two conclusions:

1. weigh pros and cons and decide between high quality glass or HDPE

2. Now, Does anyone know what is better than HDPE and does not break like glass?



PFOA-free PTFE containers!

 

[Pup Tentacle]

Nicely wrapped up Infundibulum, thanks.

Also... best wishes and thanks to dg for the point/counterpoint. Any good discussion require at least two solid sides.

PT

 

[dg]

(read: ridiculing)

sorry you feel that way. i meant no harm- nor did i intend to make anyone feel defensive

i feel i was just debating a topic and asking for some kind of evidence of "hazardous toxicity" from traces of hdpe.(still yet to see any-btw)
saying there is a hazard requires evidence to back that up. right?
also- why do huge chem companies store lab and analytical solvents in plastic if there is such a huge risk??? (are the scientists using the product too stupid to understand the 'toxic hazard' they are working with?!)

 

[SnozzleBerry]

i feel i was just debating a topic and asking for some kind of evidence of "hazardous toxicity" from traces of hdpe.(still yet to see any-btw)
saying there is a hazard requires evidence to back that up. right?

It's all good, the CT comment just seemed like ridicule, imo.

It seems to me that you are either not hearing or not understanding what people are saying. No one is claiming that using HDPE unequivocally introduces "hazardous toxins" into your end product. This appears to be a straw man, imo. Allow me to quote several nearly identical responses that (it appears) you have summarily ignored:

There is evidence that the plastics leak into the solvent and from there it's a small step to end up in your final product. Will there be plastics in the final product? Hard to say, but from the perspective of harm reduction this is enough reason to avoid the use of plastic vessels for extractions because we cannot prove or disprove that plastics end up in the final product. As such, it is safer to assume that it plastic will end up in the final product than that there will be no plastics.

My point was really - isn't it worth mentioning that it could be a vector for contamination? Erring on the side of caution surely can't be a bad thing for those that are concerned? Don't you think?

My point was to suggest that the Nexus maybe make more of an effort to inform people about the possible hazards of NPS in plastic.

So then I ask you, what is the negative side to informing people of this?

I don't understand why there's a debate here over keeping people informed of a potential hazard. It doesn't cost money. It doesn't restrict anyone's freedom.

Please explain to me the negative side(s) of informing people of potential chemical hazards. Perhaps there are angles I'm not considering.

If we know that HDPE leaches into these solvents (per the manufacturer's statements) why insist on using the material until it's shown to be harmful? Is it not safer and more prudent to refrain from using the material until it's shown to be safe?

This is about harm reduction. This is about the fact that it's undeniably safer to avoid potentially hazardous vectors than to engage with them, regardless of whether or not they have been shown, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to be toxic.

There's no question of HDPE components providing health benefits, afaik. Therefore, the question is, does it harm people, or have no effect? There is no positive here. The risk/reward on this is, either it harms you, or it has no effect.

Given that HDPE components are unwanted materials in your final extraction product anyway, what is the argument against informing people that they are introducing an unwanted and potentially hazardous substance into their extraction?

To reiterate: From a harm reduction standpoint, it makes considerably less sense to insist that an unknown is "safe," than it does to state that it may be unsafe and that people should be aware of this and take note.

 

[Infundibulum]

also- why do huge chem companies store lab and analytical solvents in plastic if there is such a huge risk??? (are the scientists using the product too stupid to understand the 'toxic hazard' they are working with?!)

I believe this point has already been addressed and the re is no need to bring it forward again as said above, for some applications contaminated solvents with plastic or plasticisers are OK, for others, not. For instance, if a solvent like essential oil is to used for human applications it is not going to be sold in hdpe.

i feel i was just debating a topic and asking for some kind of evidence of "hazardous toxicity" from traces of hdpe.(still yet to see any-btw)

I also think this has been addressed and no need to be brought up again; hdpe as is may be non-toxic, but destabilised ingredients from hdpe (after its exposure on solvent) do leach in the solvent (just like phthalates), the risk therefore exists.

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

The study above can be criticized as is, for instance one can say that even though the HDPE powder per se is not toxic, phthalates leaching out of HDPE and can contaminate an extraction end product are toxic. Or that the toxicity was tested in rats and not humans.

This is really the point I was trying to get to, these studies are geared for a specific answer when funded by the industries that pose to lose money if they are found to be harmful.

The phthalates and other plasticizers that act as estrogen mimics are really the point of concern for plastics, not the plastics themselves, as they are very large molecules that will definitely not end up in the final product.

There is plenty of proof that plasticizers leach from LDPE and most other plastics into just about any liquid they hold. Although this is likely to be less of a concern for HDPE, it does leach plasticizers, so I would avoid them, but that's just because i don't think its worth the risk of allowing anything that cant be avoided into the mixture. Glass works great, why not just use glass?

edit: If I was going to store a solution of very strong NaOH solution for an extended period I would definitely use HDPE over glass, but I think most of us make our own solutions of base using crystalline lye.

 

[Infundibulum]

The study above can be criticized as is, for instance one can say that even though the HDPE powder per se is not toxic, phthalates leaching out of HDPE and can contaminate an extraction end product are toxic. Or that the toxicity was tested in rats and not humans.

This is really the point I was trying to get to, these studies are geared for a specific answer when funded by the industries that pose to lose money if they are found to be harmful

But isn't it an ad hominem to say that the study has vested interest to give an answer that does not reflect reality? Studies criticised as being "geared for a specific answer" and of "industries that pose to lose money" have a clear ad hominem echo, which is unwelcome in the nexus. All studies, even those mede from interested companies are considered honest unless we have evidence to think otherwise.

 

[cyb]

sorry

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

I just can't help but think of Monsanto, Flouride, Aspartame, and the likes when I hear about studies that prove the "safety" of a product being sold on the market. Most scientists are honest and dedicated people seeking nothing but truth and the vast majority of articles published I do not question so harshly. I'm reminded when I read the label of a milk bottle and it says "no sinificant difference has been shown between the milk of cows with (whatever hormone they are using now) and those which have not" or something along those lines. Sorry for making it seem like I don't trust scientists, I am one, I just approach those types of studies with extreme caution and usually check the funding section at the back of the paper before i even read it.

Love and Respect brother.

 

[Infundibulum]

^^
It's all good my man!

PS: cyb, you're a first class bastard!

 

[Major Tom]

I purchased a " chemical - resistant " HDPE bucket and lid to use for STB extractions . The plastic has reacted to and been deformed slightly by the Xylene used ...

 

[Rivea]

I am concerned with putting any kind of plasticizer in my body. I see a doctor who will not use water stored in any container containing BPA or any other phthalates for drinking or preparing parenteral medications. He won't use IV equipment containing such plasticizers to administer parenteral treatments. These compounds mimic estrogen and wreak havoc on your endocrine system. I agree with the others posting that you need to prove these compounds are NOT harmful before I use them. I have seen numerous claims that HDPE does not use phthalates in their blending, but caveat emptor in my opinion....

This article give reason that we are pushing our luck buying consumable produts in plastic containers -> link

I am distrustful of using plastics of any sort for handling solvents weather it be for storage or as reaction vessels. I only trust borosilicate lab glass and occasionally stainless steel for any chemicals that I am willing to handle. I say no to using plastic or aluminum for extractions.

 

[Rivea]

It is a loosing battle with plastics. They are ubiquitous. Try as you will man you will never avoid them completely.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/02/09/plastic-dangers.aspx?e_cid=20130209_DNL_art_1&utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20130209

 

[Mel Angel]

I hate plastic, despite using it in extractions due to lack of proper equipment. I've heated up plastic containers in water baths, and plasticizers most likely leached on to my final product. So everytime I take a DMT hit, which is pretty rare these days....haven't smoked in a few months...I probably do some damage to my endocrine system. The worst part about plastic is how it ends up in rivers and lakes, and then makes its way to the ocean and trans-Atlantic gyre where the sun degrades it to microscopic levels...fish eat it cause they can't tell the difference...big fish eat little fish...fuck the world.