Hedonism VS Ascetism

[Psilosopher?]

So, I opened my Youtube subscriptions and I saw this video title by PsychedSubstance. "Top 5 Sex Enhancing Psychedelics". So I thought I'd posit this question.

Has psychedelics made you more into a hedonist or an ascetic?


For me, psychedelics have turned me into an ascetic. I no longer find certain things pleasurable, like video games and porn. That isn't to say I don't find pleasure in life. It's more of a transition in preferences. I know that a lot of people have become more sensual and more hedonistic, regardless of psychedelic use. Personally, I find hedonistic pleasures to be shallow and ill-deserved, because I have not achieved anything in life worthy of rewarding myself. The whole aspect of rewards is also something I veer away from, so I guess it's only natural that I would feel this way. To each, their own.


For what it's worth, I don't think there is a right or wrong way in this matter. Whatever makes people happy.

 

[nen888]

..'hedonism' vs 'ascetism' are two polar extremes of not so strictly defined things..

the Vedanta take on it could be summarised as, it's not about 'bad/good', it's about choice and outcome (or goal)..when the focus is primarily on increasing sensual pleasure of the body/organs it leads to only transient and incomplete fulfilment, which keeps one in place of deep dissatisfaction..it is said that what people really desire when seeking pleasure is reconnection to the Self (soul,spirit), the mind obsesses with an object of desire, is tortured when it can't have it (suffering) and, then when it gets it is momentarily satisfied but in fact left empty, as what is really 'desired' is not understood..

but also, this does not necessarily mean complete rejection of pleasure in the world, as tantrics say..as even Adi Shankaracharya says, people still need to be born, and it is actions in the world which can lead to understanding..
'hedonism' is tied in with greed..so examples are people with many lovers not being as satisfied as those with one, or two (there is a gradient between extremes), or repeated use of pornography leads to nothing giving pleasure to people, or eating too much or different kinds of food at once can make you sick..

the 'ascetic' approach (which can still involve being a 'householder' ) is about trying to reach more lasting and sustained fulfilment..
this is also why the majority of 'medicine' plant, shamanic, indigenous traditions restrict behaviour (such as sexual activity, or even contact with the opposite gender, or society) during and leading up to ceremony..it takes away from or distracts from the kind of powerful experience they are trying to achieve...but sure, they still have partners, families etc..
here there's a balancing of approaches..

Buddhists and Vedantins say hedonism (which expresses as obsessions or greed or impulsive behaviour) simply leads to more suffering...it's up to you..do the experiment and work it out for yourself, not 'stop it it's a sin' - judeo-christian ideas taint this discussion in the West
..and of course in tho eastern traditions there is a gradient - happy celibates to householders, or tantrics vs undisciplined consumption and desire focus..
personally in my life i have not seen any benefit from over indulging in sensual pleasure or self gratification in myself or others..and in most cases just prolonged distraction or dissatisfaction or mental fragmentation...but as the old mystics say - work it out for yourself
.

 

[jamie]

Andrew Feldmar once called bs on me personally, in reference to the notion that there is ever any kind of person. There are only people. I agree.

Labels.

I have come to the conclusion that isolation, and an overall withdrawl from the world is not overly helpful. At the end of the day it's all about relation. You can spend all the time you have in isolation or abstaining from certain things, but once you have to relate to others...how well do you do?

I am not so big on labels. I would rather just see how you do.

It's easier to withdrawl from the world, I find..than to live in it with a certain kind of composure and relation. I don't think sex or pleasure necessarily has anything to do with it.

I would much rather be given the courtesy of being seen simply as a person, rather than being cast off into someone else's polar notion of what kind of person I am.

I get it. I just don't find it helpful any longer, regardless of traditional views etc.

 

[tseuq]

Both, they first ripped everything off and showed me my ascetic nature and let me now experience life in a hedonistic way.

Like I wrote in my introduction post, I am (in) silence and things come to me, I appreciate.

Love tseuq

 

[dragonrider]

They're not mutually exclusive. The label 'hedonism' only refers to indulgence. It doesn't nessecarily say anything about the kind of things you endulge in. Someone who fully enjoys a sunset is a hedonist. Someone who quits smoking, alcohol or Sugar, to improve his overal health and to better enjoy being in good health, is a hedonist.

 

[Psilosopher?]

Buddhists and Vedantins say hedonism (which expresses as obsessions or greed or impulsive behaviour) simply leads to more suffering...it's up to you..do the experiment and work it out for yourself, not 'stop it it's a sin' - judeo-christian ideas taint this discussion in the West.

The definition of sins in Judeo-Christian ideologies is not a bad premise. But it often leads to mindless obedience. "I must not kill, because that hugeass stone inscription says not to". This is akin to preconventional morality, to use Lawrence Kohlberg's 3-tier definition of morality.

The best teacher is the self. As for this collection of atoms that I call me, I find myself aligning with asceticism. I seek the truth of existence, reality, meaning of life, bla bla bla. I couldn't find that by doing things I desired. I would get empty fulfilment from "achieving" insignificant things like winning a video game, which only made me realise the futility of it all.

Some evangelical Christians would say that sex before marriage is "impure" or something, I think that those people don't even understand why that belief came into existence. I can see how sex before marriage can be born out of lust or sensual desire, which is a facet of hedonism. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as no one is getting hurt. It's actually hypocritical, in fact, when someone like a televangelist speaks about the evil of desire, while living in a multi-million dollar house with a private jet.

I don't see desire as being inherently evil, but one may commit evil acts in the pursuit of their desire. All I desire is to be free from desire. Hah.

All cultures and faiths have had their monastics and ascetics. People who have realised that the material world is exactly that. Material. There are rare occasions where I wish I was like most of the human population, free from the immense psychological burden of existentialism. But once felt, it cannot be unfelt. At the end of the day, I actually enjoy battling these mind-crushing ideas, as mentally exhausting as it is. It feels like a breath of life in the sea of drivel pooped out by most forms of media and "entertainment".

EDIT: In regards to that point about labels. If someone likes to dance, isn't it fair to label them a "dancer"? Sure, people are people. But people are complicated, filled with ideas, philosophies, cognitive dissonances etc. People should not be defined by a label, but a label makes it easy to identify certain characteristics. A person who likes to dance is a dancer. But that person might also like to hike. Therefore, they are also a hiker. That person may also be a physician as a profession. So is it wrong to call that person a physician? That person is many things, none of which defines them. There is only one word that can truly define them. Human. Unless we're talking about a squirrel or something.

 

[Valmar]

They're not mutually exclusive. The label 'hedonism' only refers to indulgence. It doesn't nessecarily say anything about the kind of things you endulge in. Someone who fully enjoys a sunset is a hedonist. Someone who quits smoking, alcohol or Sugar, to improve his overal health and to better enjoy being in good health, is a hedonist.

Well said.

 

[Psilosopher?]

They're not mutually exclusive. The label 'hedonism' only refers to indulgence. It doesn't nessecarily say anything about the kind of things you endulge in. Someone who fully enjoys a sunset is a hedonist. Someone who quits smoking, alcohol or Sugar, to improve his overal health and to better enjoy being in good health, is a hedonist.

I meant this definition of hedonism.

Buddhists and Vedantins say hedonism (which expresses as obsessions or greed or impulsive behaviour)

 

[Koornut]

l I actually enjoy battling these mind-crushing ideas, as mentally exhausting as it is. It feels like a breath of life in the sea of drivel pooped out by most forms of media and "entertainment".

Try meditating for 20 minutes before watching the kardashians B.
I don't doubt you will be pleasantly surprised by the lessons inherent within that show as it wiggles it's way into your conciousness, and every show for that matter. It helps to think of all the people it takes to make a show like that, probably feeding their kids or drug habits with their paychecks. It doesn't matter the purpose.
Over 2000 people came together for the purpose of creating star wars, the force awakens.

Unsolved Mystery: Why Do Over 2,000 People Worldwide Have The Same Dream? - MessageToEagle.com

MessageToEagle.com - It is very unusual for people to share the same dream.

www.messagetoeagle.com

 

[jamie]

..don't get me wrong...I meditate on a daily basis and identify with much of vedanta as well as buddhist ideas. I also have suffered my entire life with at times crippling social anxiety that led me to feeling like a social outcast, alone and awkward and with long periods of time without much real connection to others. I have spent a lot of time alone in contemplation without friends, gone years without sex, avoided television etc..

It never made me any better at being a decent human being while out among the general public however..and relationships..LOL!.. It's not hard to (self)inflate myself to the level of christ when im sitting alone in a tent high on acid in the woods for a week...5 minutes of trying to relate to others in a large urban city setting and I can resort right back to the same old miserable bastard of a guy that I was before.

I have concluded, therefore, that in my case real growth and self realization happens in the context of relationship. That has always been the real test. Interestingly, it is also the main button which, when pushed forces me to really see myself for who I am much more clearly. I am rather thankful that I have a partner in my life willing to explore the dynamic of relationship with me.

Living alone in a mountain cave might work for others. I just don't see that kind of isolation being healthy for myself. Even with psychedelics, some of the most profound experiences have happened while in relation with another. The alone in a dark room thing has it's merits..as well as it's limitations.

 

[tseuq]

Offtopic:

It's not hard to (self)inflate myself to the level of christ when im sitting alone in a tent high on acid in the woods for a week...5 minutes of trying to relate to others in a large urban city setting and I can resort right back to the same old miserable bastard of a guy that I was before.

I have concluded, therefore, that in my case real growth and self realization happens in the context of relationship.

In my opinion, it is the relationship to myself. How I treat myself is a like a template of how I can treat others. Reality, as I experience it, reflects my inner, in "every" now, created world, "inside = outside".

tseuq

 

[woogyboogy]

First of all psychs taught me to treat my body and myself with respect, and that lifes possibilies are limitless.

If anything I was more oriented towards a withdrawn life before my period of more intense psych use. That is probably because psyches showed me that it is possible for me to fulfill my deepest wishes and create a fulfilled life in this lifetime. I cant say though that at a later stage in my life, the lessons might change.

In a way they set me on the path to be more grounded in the world, and to create a life that suits me, not necessarily one devoid of pleasures.

On the other hand they also showed me what true bliss, friendship and love is, and as consequence of that I stopped indulging in various in the end self destructive and hedonistic behaviors.
Including porn and video games for that matter...
I would say they pulled me away from mindless hedonistic actions, and more towards a balanced way of pleasure seeking.

Also while I started out with the view that psychedelics should only be used as mere tools of transcendence/healing, my view is changing. I now accept them as a mean of recreation, but with the thought in mind, that ultimately ecstasy(also as recreation) is important for a healthy mind and body. So to be precise one would have to differ between different kinds of recreations, as I still wouldnt put it in the same category as for example video games.
In another example LSD + Dancing can be viewed imo as one of the most purest and most non hedonistic(-in the buddhist interpretation) recreations/pleasures there is.

EDIT: I think once youve learned to enjoy psychedelic states, a lot of the commonly advertised means to experience pleasure may start to appear dull and boring, then these altered states automatically can become some kind of recreation...

 

[RAM]

While on psychedelics, I have found it easy to see the value of asceticism. When confronted with ridiculous amounts of sensory information, I often find myself reduced to a state of "having no preferences" (I will literally say this) and I just sit and stare into space with no real desires to do or think anything. This is an interesting and useful state for me, but hardly a sustainable one.

Psychedelics have helped me think about what brings me pleasure and why. I do not think it is wrong to feel pleasure; we are only on this planet for apparently so many years. In fact, as dragonrider said, we take pleasure in all the things they do, just at various levels. If one revels in being an ascetic, aren't they fulfilling some kind of hedonistic urge because they are doing something that brings them fulfillment/joy? People do not act without a purpose, and I believe that most if not all actions are inherently selfish and thus probably hedonistic on some level.

That said, psychedelics have allowed me to refine my tastes and analyze which ones were passed to me by capitalist society. I now find immensurate pleasure in meditating and looking at mountains, which was not the case before I began indulging in psychs. I no longer enjoy self-destructive habits, such as excessively drinking alcohol - not that I really did this that much before, but things of this nature.

Overall, I have found that psychedelics are useful for helping us refine who we really are, and thus the things we really like, from meditation to yacht racing.

 

[nen888]

The definition of sins in Judeo-Christian ideologies is not a bad premise. But it often leads to mindless obedience. "I must not kill, because that hugeass stone inscription says not to". This is akin to preconventional morality, to use Lawrence Kohlberg's 3-tier definition of morality.

The best teacher is the self...

the self is a potent concept for addressing choices or philosophies of ethically 'appropriate' modes of behaviour..

actually i think perhaps the single greatest ‘law,’ or philosophy of Christianity specifically is
‘do unto others as you would have done to you’..

meditated upon and applied to a range of situations, this is actually quite a powerful law, the act of contemplation requiring introspection and an analysis of ethical philosophy as well as heart..

however with the beginning of the Christian Church franchise in Rome, the list of sanctions and declarations of sins became the product of not particularly enlightened men, and all philosophies became re-interpreted or misunderstood (as the early ‘Nazarean’ church the middle east said themselves), but also there are many problems with the applications or philosophical mode the Judaic Ten Commandments..

so yes, i do personally believe there is, on a certain altitude of planer existence, ‘bad’ and ‘good’ (or life affirming vs destructive, for want of better words) in simplistic terms and relative relation, but arguably more ‘universal’ laws (meaning those basic ethics of a wide range of cultures) can be arrived at by proper intellectual as well as heart based deduction…so the approach of the Vedic, or some other ancient cultures, is to philosophically lay out the rational and motivational reasons for any kind of polar ethical or balance related individual conclusion..

also the concept of 'karma', and the investigation of it's possible mechanisms or interference patterns, is relevant to the understanding of for vedic explanations and/or concepts of 'sin'...

entheogens, as a tool can allow modes of mind in which introspections and also 'detachment' from mental process and self-identity, and also observation of mental process, and pattern recognition..
use of entheogenic plants within a personal or systematic 'law' of action and intent is more helpful usually in achieving system optimisation with regards to the previously mentioned observational processes..

lastly, on Vedanta, Buddhism and similar philosophies, the 'non-dual' concept is itself a powerful tool or 'law' for the above mentioned 'detachment' in such processes, with the possibility of achieving more 'neutral' or objective positions on what are often unravel-able fields of emotion in individuals, and groups..

ps. some other interesting perspectives in the thread too...

 

[tseuq]

Offtopic:

People do not act without a purpose, and I believe that most if not all actions are inherently selfish and thus probably hedonistic on some level.

In my opinion, this is the nature of "our human game". How can it be different when I only "know" myself and probably will ever know? I am always the cause for what ever I do (not), regardless if I admit it or not.

To me, we all set up ourselves at one point, on the same endless plane, from where we take a look at the panorama and say: "yes, I am here and the world looks like this" and because you are there, the world looks like that. Thus, there is no generalizable "right", no right perspective or practice, no one which is just a litte bit more right, more there are different ways, different perspectives, projections of the same plane, each with an individually truth.

Funnily most of our behaviour is an attempt to recieve love and gain validation in any form. By playing the game of "who am I?", I feel like a stranger in a serious and frightening world, seperated and alone. More over, because of my imagined seperateness, I feel finite and vulnerable in the ever changing process of life and "I" want to persist. This is where all fear comes from.
It is like visiting a theme park, were I enter the hall of mirrors, totally give myself in and play like "I am trapped in this crazy world and where am I and where is the exit?".
Selfrealization, as ever present om, as ever present consciousness, brings "me" to silence, it stops the seeking for love and validation and flips the flow of this stream into being love myself. My nature is ascetic, I am full and thus free of needs, and being [an expression of "love/consciousness/call it what so ever" (what we all are, in every moment, reagrdless of what we do or think)] is the greatest hedonistic pleasure I have experienced so far.

tseuq

 

[hixidom]

I don't think pleasure vs not-pleasure is a fair juxtaposition. A better juxtaposition (in my opinion) is pleasure vs. ambition. I wouldn't say psychedelics have made me a hedonist, but they certainly make it harder to toil at my career...