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Ketogenic

Rising Star
Hey guys whats up?

I have been a long time lurker and I'm sorry for not joining years ago to contribute to this great community! I don't really join forums much....

Anyway here I am. The main reason I joined is to add to the conversations going on in the STB section about the adding of salts and Ionic strengths of the Aquarius solutions. I have a back ground in chemistry and wanted to add me 0.02c. As I am a new member I cant post in the extractions forum yet. Firstly ChemisTryptaMan is a genius for thinking of it. I probably never would have. Secondly he is right (obviously) with the salt thing the more ionic the solution the more "push" it has against the non polar molecules.

NaCl is great, everyone has it and it works well. The thing is, is it the best?? Maybe.. I did some thinking over the past day on the subject and this is what I came up with.

This was my thought process as it went along
I thought about trying Na2CO3 as the CO3 is minus 2 charge. It should work well... I'm not sure if it will work as well as salt though as it doesn't completely ionize like NaCl does. If Na2CO3 ionizes > 50% in water than it should be more effective (at total negative ionization) than NaCl at equal solubility.... Of course solubility comes into play! I was thinking probably a mixture of the two in some kind of ratio would yield better results than just either on their own...

Enter Na3PO4 (Trisodium Phosphate) as the PO4 has a charge of -3.
When this came into my head I had thought I hit the joke pot. Not only is it a strong base (fully ionizes) but it has minus three charges!! Then I checked it solubility.. Only 88grams per liter.

Then I hit myself in the face because I had totally forgotten about moles...and it gets even worse when you actually check the amount of moles possible to dissolve in solutions...

Solubility are
NaCl - 359g/L = 6.143mol/L

Na2CO3 - 215g/L = 2.023mol/L
*2 for the charge = 4.046mol/L worth of NaCl (But it doesn't fully ionize)

Na3PO4 - 88g/L = 0.53mol/L
*3 for the charge = 1.59mol/L

So even though the last 2 have double and triple charges you can't physically get them into the water as well.

Conclusion
Salt would seem to be the best bet so far. I'm not counting out other things as of yet. Simply basing H2SO4 or H3PO4 with NaOH should yield good results. As the H will just bond to the OH making more water therefore making the SO4/PO4 ions even more soluble.... Might get a massive excess of Na cations though... Needs more thinking and definitely needs more experimenting!

Anyway I have always loved these forums and I am glad I have finally decided to join.
(Sorry if this is the COMPLETE wrong place to write all this it's just I have been thinking about it non stop for 2 days and had to get it out of my brain) :p
 
I guess I should probably say a bit about myself as this is the introduction essay...

I have been a DMT lover for years now. I remember trying some for the first time years ago and it blew my mind! I had a breakthrough on my very first experience and have loved it ever since.

I used the teks on the wiki pages and have been enjoying the fruits of my own (and the authors of the teks) labor for a while now. I feel like it's time to help give back to this awesome community. As I stated before I do have a chemist background so I can help out with experimenting.

I actually have an experiment going right now.
6 different 100g MHRB STB's all with varying amounts/combos of NaCl and Na2CO3.... I will wait till I'm off probation to post it in the appropriate section.

I would really love to help find a perfect ratio for maximum yields and to give back to you all.

Peace and love.
 
hey nice to meet u im also new to here and usually never join forrums untill recently. have you ever tried an A/B ive found that the yield are higher however it is much more time consuming. also how oldd are you if you dont mind me asking
 
Magnesium Sulphate is a good idea and may work well. Interesting read I may try something out....

I still think the best idea is ditch the vinegar soak and switch it with a phosphoric acid one. This will leave loads of PO4-3 ions left over. You could do an H2SO4 soak too but it probably best to avoid sulfuric acid unless you know what you are doing!

So my 6 experiments are well under way.

I have decided to just do a simple STB for ease all in 2 liter bottles.

Bottle 1
100g - MHRB
120g - NaOH
50g - NaCl
175ml - Toluene
(2x 50ml tol washes)
(1x 75ml over night tol pull)

Bottle 2
100g - MHRB
120g - NaOH
50g - Na2CO3
175ml - Toluene
(2x 50ml tol washes)
(1x 75ml over night tol pull)

Bottle 3
100g - MHRB
120g - NaOH
50g - NaCl
50g - Na2CO3
175ml - Toluene
(2x 50ml tol washes)
(1x 75ml over night tol pull)

Bottle 4
100g - MHRB
120g - NaOH
100g - NaCl
100g - Na2CO3
175ml - Toluene
(2x 50ml tol washes)
(1x 75ml over night tol pull)

Bottle 5
100g - MHRB
120g - NaOH
maxium saturation of - Na2CO3
maxium saturation of - NaCl
175ml - Toluene
(2x 50ml tol washes)
(1x 75ml over night tol pull)

Bottle 6
100g - MHRB
120g - NaOH
maxium saturation of - NaCl
maxium saturation of - Na2CO3
175ml - Toluene
(2x 50ml tol washes)

Notes.
I used Toluene because I wanted to see what effect it has on extracting more then just the DMT. It should in theory be better at extracting the plant fats/non polars too.

The difference between bottle 5 and bottle 6 is bottle 5 had the Na2CO3 dissolved to saturation first then NaCl was added to saturation. And bottle 6 is the other way around with NaCl dissolved to saturation then Na2CO3 added till saturation. This was done at close to waters boiling point for maximum saturation.

With the combo bottles 3 and 4 the NaCl and Na2CO3 were pre mixed together in a beaker then added to hot water so that they dissolved together as evenly as possible.

Not all of bottle 4 dissolved and left some NaCl and Na2CO3 in the beaker.

The NaOH was already pre-dissolved into the water before adding anything else in all of the bottles.

The hot bottles were shaken and left to sit all next to each other with a thick blanket wrapped around them to hold the heat in. After about 1 hour Toluene was added to the bottles 50mls at a time and shaken with no caution for emotions what so ever. The tol settled out easily and was separated and the process was repeated. A further 75ml of Toluene was put back into the bottles and shaken again and left over night.

It is now the next day and I just extracted the over night tol from each bottle and combined it into the evaporating dishes corresponding with each bottle.

So in total I have 175ml worth of toluene evaporating in six separate dishes. I also threw another 75mls into the bottles for a third pull and will leave over night. I am going to work up the double pulled stuff soon and recrystallize it to get a yield for each bottle.

Oh and @joshisom I'm 28 years old.

Peace out and Dream on.
 
Ketogenic said:
You could do an H2SO4 soak too but it probably best to avoid sulfuric acid unless you know what you are doing!
Click to expand...

Not only do you absolutely need to know what you're doing, Sulfuric Acid is a heavily watched chemical:

From Wikipedia:
Legal restrictions

International commerce of sulfuric acid is controlled under the United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances, 1988, which lists sulfuric acid under Table II of the convention as a chemical frequently used in the illicit manufacture of narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances.[26]

In the US sulfuric acid is included in List II of the list of essential or precursor chemicals established pursuant to the Chemical Diversion and Trafficking Act. Accordingly, transactions of sulfuric acid—such as sales, transfers, exports from and imports to the United States—are subject to regulation and monitoring by the Drug Enforcement Administration.[27][28][29]
Click to expand...

en.wikipedia.org

Sulfuric acid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Yeah sorry I forget sometimes about watched chems and things like that as I have legal access to a lot of things most others don't.

I ended up going out for the weekend so I didn't finish off the 2nd pulls. I just left them evaporating in their trays. Since I know have a full day of time I have decided to just pour in the third pulls into the trays and wait for them to evaporate then recrystallize the whole lot. By whole lot I mean all of bottle 1, all of bottle 2, separately not all 6 bottles together!

Things I have noticed so far are.
The straight NaCl pull is the darkest yellow, kinda almost orange.
The straight Na2CO3 pull is second darkest and they both have about the same amount left over after the 2nd pull evap.
Bottle 3,4,5 look about that same as each other
Bottle 6 didn't have much at all for some reason....

SO far its obviously to early to tell. I will do the rexstal today and have results by tomorrow night I guess.
 
^ I agree.

I don't really see any point in adding ionic salts into the extraction unless your having problems with emulsions and getting the layers separated. But you really shouldnt have this problem, especially if your wasting 120 GRAMS of NaOH on 100g of bark

If you want to pull more DMT from the mix, stop using naphtha and pick an aromatic.

Seriously, the solution is plenty ionic. 120g of a strong base like NaOH? Thats 100% dissociation of OH- were talkin. keep high voltage away from that mixture, it will likely arc. Adding salt isn't going to make much of a difference, when you consider the amount of strongly charged ions already present.
 
Hello Ketogenic,

Welcome to the Nexus. Great to have another long time lurker sign up for membership.

Your first post seemed kind of chem heavy. and I'm no chemist. DMT extraction is so darned simple, truly there's no need to procure any specialized glassware or watched or scheduled chemicals. I understand if there's a fantastic improvement in yield but other than that I cannot figure out the trend here to try to make something simple more complex than need be. Just a non-chemist's opinion though . . . no need to take it to heart.

Please do take a moment to edit the second paragraph in your second post in order to remove the reference to drug commerce. It is something we just do not discuss here. Attitude Page - DMT-Nexus Wiki

So, I'm wondering what else you might be willing to share with us? Did you have a lot of psychedelic experience up to the point where you first sampled DMT? Have you done DMT via vaping, oral administration or both? Has it had any affects on your life, perceptions or functioning, either positive or negative. Are your main interests focused around chemistry or do you have others? Anything you might be willing to add can only help us to get to know you better.

Again, welcome to the Nexus.
 
@benzyme and Mindlusion
You're right it doesn't need anything to migrate into the non-polar. But will ALL of it go in? I always thought yes until I read ChemisTryptaMan's threads on adding salt to increase the ionic strength of the solution. Him and a few others who have tried have all claimed increase in yields... some people up to 3%.
I've never heard of anyone getting a 3% yield. But I haven't really been keeping up with the latest's TEK's so maybe this is the norm now?
I'm not sure what you mean by switch from Naptha as I have stated I'm using Toluene.
And I added 120 NaOH to help increase the ionic strength. I wouldn't call it a waste as it's doing exactly what I want it to do...

You're all correct in the fact this doesn't really NEED to be done. But if adding some salt to your basic water is going to increase your yield by 0.5% it's a pretty good idea as it takes literally 2 extra minutes to do. The point of experimenting is to see if there is a better way that's worth while. If we all just find one way and stick to it than it will never grow. I am just running an experiment to see the difference in the ionic strengths. If pKa's are the only thing that effect it then I should have the same yield in every bottle right? We'll see.

@Pandora
Yeah I had many psychedelic experiences before trying DMT. They were all great in their own way. The thing I personally don't like about a lot of different psychedelics is the amount of time they last for. I find my self getting fed up with them after a long while of being on them. So when I sampled DMT it was the perfect fit for me. I have never tried it orally, but I'm not opposed to the idea.
I wouldn't say DMT changed me as a person but it did effect me in the way I look at things. I don't know it's hard to explain... I wasn't a spiritual person before at all and I would still lean on the side of not being one now, but now I don't think I know everything about it.. If that makes sense?
Chemistry isn't my only love I also love PC gaming. Strategy online gaming specifically. Anything from Starcraft to DOTA/LOL to age of empires. All the RTS games :) If there are any players on here I would love to add you for a few games!

I have removed the section from my second post. Sorry about that.
Peace out
 
Your reply makes perfect sense to me. I find that in this current phase of life I have very little time or inclination to trip. I cannot justify scheduling a day plus a day for recovery.

The short, sharp, deep, trip that DMT offers sometimes just fits the bill. I never know what may be dealt up or how much integration will be needed but I do know the main effects will all be over within 30-60 mins and that's quite unique. :D
 
Yeah I hear ya brother. Gone for me are the 2 day long experiences. One day of fun one day of feeling shit! DMT really is such a great trip. And you actually feel better after it has warn off both mentally and physically! Such an amazing compound.

Anyway my results are in!

bottle 1
900mg
0.9%

bottle 2
1323mg
1.323%

bottle 3
1130mg
1.130%

bottle 4
1200mg
1.2%

bottle 5
1060mg
1.06%

bottle 6
980mg
0.98%

Yields are a little on the low side across the board. Maybe the bark itself wasn't very high. But surprisingly the straight Na2CO3 sodium carbonate bottle was the highest yield. With combos of NaCl and Na2CO3 getting higher results than NaCl alone that had the lowest yield!

Super saturation seemed to have a negative effect as bottle 3 and 4 were both higher in yield compared to that of 5 and 6.

Anyway these are my results take them as they are.
I hope this helps someone somewhere with something :p

And now I have enough DMT to last me well into the new year! Time to salt some I think!

Peace out
 
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