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Hit or miss experiences

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Nature Boy

Nature Boy

Rising Star
Swim has been methodically and incrementally experimenting with CaapiCopy for an MAOI and the fumarate salt for his journeys. A typical experiment would involve 15 drops THH and 15 drops CaapiCopy and 130 - 150mg fumarate with only the lightest of responses. The best so far was 40 drops CaapiCopy and 160mg fumarate salt, for a level 1.5 - 2 experience that lasted ~ 2 hours.

Fasting for a minimum of 9 hours (often 12 or more) helps, but the above doses seem so high compared with the average I see discussed on this forum. Some are blown away by 50mg?! SWIM's dosing needs seem so wasteful of material(s). Any advice??

Thanks,

N.B.
 
160 mg is lots of dmt fumarate...

Do you use store bought THH and Caapi Copy?
If so i suggest you try making some Harmaline from Syrian Rue, its anoying but easy :)

Cheers,
V
 
Store bought? SWIM's supply came from FV.

Yes...SWIM has all the ingredients to make his own harmaline...it's a bother, but can be done easily enough. SWIM was under the impression that the "store bought" products were the way to go. Are you saying they're ineffectual?

N.B.
 
You know..the doses of DMT used in traditional ayahuasca seem to be lower than what is needed for pharma. Pharma(the way its prepared alot here) simply IS NOT ayahuasca the way I experience ayahuasca. When I read peoples pharma reports, it is clear to me they are NOT having the same experiences I am having with caapi and mimosa ayahuasca brews. There is somethign about caapi that is specific to caapi..THH alone doesnt seem to do it..neither does rue or a combination of 3 harmalas..caapi contains much more than just THH, harmine and harmaline..so far I think there are about 9 actives found in caapi.

Others like endlessness have said the same thing..they seem to need less light plants when they drink traditional ayahuasca then when pharma is used. If you could make pharma with all the actives in caapi than maybe it would be the same. Also with caapi there are distinct life like dream sequences that I experience that are very very meaningful, and there is a lack of them in pharma reports on this forum..yet you read reports where caapi is used here and on the ayahuasca forums you hear about this stuff.

IMO its either that people here are making pharma basically to have an oral DMT experience, using the minimum ammount of harmalas, so the DMT is fully active with a lack of the dreaming effect of the harmalas, or its something specific to caapi. I liek caapi dominant brews personally with only a hint of light so the DMT does not overpower and drown out the caapi dreams. If I want a full on oral DMT type experience I just eat mushrooms..ayahuasca for me is something different from smoking DMT..even with changa, I cant like fall into that half asleap state(for obvious reasons) and experince the caapi dreams..changa has that caapi vibe, but when I drink caapi and just lay there like im sleeping then it happens.
 
Nature Boy said:
Swim has been methodically and incrementally experimenting with CaapiCopy for an MAOI and the fumarate salt for his journeys. A typical experiment would involve 15 drops THH and 15 drops CaapiCopy and 130 - 150mg fumarate with only the lightest of responses. The best so far was 40 drops CaapiCopy and 160mg fumarate salt, for a level 1.5 - 2 experience that lasted ~ 2 hours.

Fasting for a minimum of 9 hours (often 12 or more) helps, but the above doses seem so high compared with the average I see discussed on this forum. Some are blown away by 50mg?! SWIM's dosing needs seem so wasteful of material(s). Any advice??

Thanks,

N.B.
Click to expand...

Do you take them at the same time in juice? That's the best way to do it in SWIM's opinion. Never take them separately.
 
69ron said:
Do you take them at the same time in juice? That's the best way to do it in SWIM's opinion. Never take them separately.
Click to expand...

I seem to reflect the opposite of this, as have a few others. If I take the two together I get harmaloid effects only.
 
soulfood said:
69ron said:
Do you take them at the same time in juice? That's the best way to do it in SWIM's opinion. Never take them separately.
Click to expand...

I seem to reflect the opposite of this, as have a few others. If I take the two together I get harmaloid effects only.
Click to expand...

Everyone is different.

For SWIM he must take them at the same time dissolved in juice (not capsules) or the effect of the DMT is diminished. He’s tried waiting 5, 15, 30 minutes before taking the DMT, and while 5 is ok, 15 barely works, and 30 does almost nothing sometimes.
 
69ron said:
Do you take them at the same time in juice? That's the best way to do it in SWIM's opinion. Never take them separately.
Click to expand...

On the first couple of attempts, SWIM took them within 5 minutes of one another. Now, they're taken together. SWIM is beginning to think his CaapiCopy and / or THH is weak. He's never really have gotten any nausea, and he is not sure what a "pure" harmala effect is on the mind, so is not in a good position to judge the degree of MAOI inhibition. Maybe upping the MAOI is the key?

In a couple of weeks, all members of his household (except SWIM) are going on vacation. That will present an opportunity to extract some Rue. Time will tell...

N.B.
 
what fractal said... it seems there is a very big variation of dosage when taking pharma. I've had several discussions with people here about this and I've ruled out methods of ingestion, it seems its really about individual sensitivity. For example, Jorkest needs maybe 30mg of dmt fumarate for his pharma trips, while I need at least some 150mg for a decent experience, even more like 200mg+ (even taking in the exact same way as him). At least partly this has to do with personal metabolism. Im attaching a publication to this post that deals exactly with this phenotype variations.

Dissolving both together in juice is also the most effective manner for me, but after a few experiences, I find the taste really repulsive, so now I put them in capsules and poke a hole in the capsule. In this way, it takes longer to hit (like 1hr instead of 30mins), the peak is not as strong (but its neither such a big difference), and its worth it for me because the ease of ingestion and also because taking with capsules gives me no nausea at all, while dissolving in juice and drinking gives me some nausea. I've tried with only harmine, harmaline, both together, full caapi extract or syrian rue tea. With all of them I still needed the large amounts of dmt. I've tried with full stomach, empty stomach, and empty stomach but eating bread with butter just after ingestion. The last one being more effective than the others but not by a big margin.

For some very interesting and unknown (AFAIK) reason, it seems there is less individual variation with ayahuasca (as in, b. caapi and p. viridis brew), than with pharma. There is still for sure variation in ayahuasca but not so huge variation as a 10-fold difference between dosages like in pharma. Whenever I have taken ayahuasca in a ceremony, I have taken similar doses to other people and have had very strong experiences too. I really wonder why is that.

Also like fractal said, pharma is very different than ayahuasca in terms of subjective experience. This is not to say that pharma is bad... I love them both. None substitutes the other IMO, each one has their place in my inner exploration. But I do recommend you try some properly brewed ayahuasca sometime and see how you feel about that compared to pharma

by the way, how was the fumarates made? FASW, FASI or FASA?
 

Attachments

  • Fast+and+Slow+metabolizers+of+ayahuasca.pdf
    1.3 MB · Views: 0
The DMT fumarate was made from freebase using FASA.

The journal article is fabulous and explains a lot. SWIM's experiences tend to shut off like a light switch was thrown. Bang. Experience over. Makes SWIM think that once the required threshold presence of MAOI inhibition is passed (on the right side of the Bell curve) through rapid metabolisation, the experience comes to a halt as accelerated destruction of the n,n, DMT occurs.

Maybe "booster" shots of MAOI's or the "sandwitching" of spice between two modest doses of MAOI would be a good approach for rapid metabolisers to keep the levels steadier? Going to have to give this some thought. That data is very interesting...

N.B.
 
If you're having trouble getting this to work, maybe try dosing your harmaloids then smoking small amounts of DMT over the course of a couple of hours. I get zero nausea this way and I can sustain an aya-like state for several hours. The only downside being that you don't get the slow onset, but the actual style of the trip is pretty much identical and it will give you a good clue about how your harmalas are working.

I've had one of the greatest experiences of my life by drinking 50g's white caapi and then smoking several 20mg doses.
 
Nature Boy said:
Store bought? SWIM's supply came from FV.

Yes...SWIM has all the ingredients to make his own harmaline...it's a bother, but can be done easily enough. SWIM was under the impression that the "store bought" products were the way to go. Are you saying they're ineffectual?

N.B.
Click to expand...

Yeah with store bought i mean from FV etc. :)

I personally dont have very good experiences with tinctures and extract from internet shops like FV.
Best thing you can do really is make your own Harmaline, because you will know exactly what your working with.

Its hard to really tell what the problem is if not all factors are know when experimenting ;)

V
 
Well, tonight may tell the tale. SWIM has set himself up with 10 drops CaapiCopy and 10 drops THH in Acai Berry juice as a "pre-treatment" which he plans to take 5 minutes before downing 200mg of Harmaline combined with 75mg DMT fumarate.

Thus, his total MAOI will be 300 mg and total "freebase equivalent" will be 50mg. SWIM told me he's fasting starting 2:00pm local time and plans to dose at or around 11:00pm, a period of 9 hours.

I'll let you know if this experiment yields any information.

N.B.
 
No. SWIM is reasonably familiar with the drops, and they're seemingly effective, although he would characterize their effects as fairly weak. If the first 100mg protects the "front door" even marginally, the second 200mg of MAOI plus the 75mg of fumarate salt ought to get through better- at least that's my working theory at the moment.

Do you think this is error or too much??

N.B.
 
Nature Boy said:
No. SWIM is reasonably familiar with the drops, and they're seemingly effective, although he would characterize their effects as fairly weak. If the first 100mg protects the "front door" even marginally, the second 200mg of MAOI plus the 75mg of fumarate salt ought to get through better- at least that's my working theory at the moment.

Do you think this is error or too much??

N.B.
Click to expand...

Everyone requires a different amount of MAOI and a different amount of DMT. Doses for harmine alone range from 150-400 mg in order to activate DMT. I know people throw the 200 mg number around a lot, but that's only an average dose. Some people need less and some people need more. The same with DMT. For some 20 mg is enough, for others they need 200 mg for the same effects orally.

You need to FIND YOUR OWN PERSONAL DOSE REQUIREMENTS. Listening to others is going to get you all confused. One person is going to say they need 150 mg (like SWIM), others will say 400 mg. SWIM can trip from 150 mg of harmine or THH (or 75 mg of harmaline) and 20 mg of DMT. But others get no effects at all with that dose. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT.
 
Thanks 69ron:

Yes, SWIM understands that efficacious dosages for both span a wide range, depending on the person. On another forum, people were alleging SWIM's required doses were heroic or wasteful. SWIM made references to the wide ranges reported here, but, it made little difference in opinion, and SWIM began to doubt the courage of his own convictions.

Going forward, SWIM will adhere to your words and continue to try to optimize the ratios and timing of MAOI and spice.

Thanks!

N.B.
 
So wait according to that journal article, a slow metabolizer would need less harmalas than a fast metabolizer? That seems really counter-intuitive. I figured a slow metabolizer would have a smaller peak concentration and a flatter curve when its vice versa... odd...
 
Harmala dosage is the key to having long and deep pharma trips. I've been experimenting for a while and my current concoction is taking 600mg of Maya Ethnobotanicals 50:1 caapi extract along with 100mg of purified harmala alkaloids from rue. I have had complete DMT breakthroughs, the same as smoked, with 115mg of freebase oral DMT.

Last week I took 75mg of freebase oral DMT with my harmala mix and expected a light trip. It was surprising strong and long. If you get your harmalas correct, your trips can be powerful even with low doses of DMT.
 
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