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How do psychedelics work on the brain? (Imperial College London lecture)
- Thread starter imPsimon
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Utterly fascinating; many thanks for sharing. :thumb_up:
This was pretty interesting..
However, I must say that I have this gut feeling that something does not make sense here.
The idea that psilocybin reduces my self introspection, results in states of de-coherence, and dissolves my experience of time if reference to the past or future etc is entirely counter intuitive for me based on my own experiences.
For one, I often feel like I have an increased ability to self reflect when I take psilocybin..like this is not debatable IMO. My ability to go within and self reflect is heightened. I and many many other people also claim to have experienced such things as "time travel" and states of consciousness where one seems to have an experience of being hyperaware of time. There is a whole hell of a lot of psychedelic phenomena that is not mentioned in this talk. Seeing faces in a wall is nothing.
I cant be the only one here who feels like a deep breakthrough cannot simply be summed up as a state of chaotic de-coherance in brain activity and a reduction of self reflection etc..something else is going on IMO.
Also with psychedelics when I am in a really good bliss mode, I feel like my brain activity must be far more coherent and synchronized than when in ordinary consciousness..not less coherent..and I believe that it IS more coherent, except when freaking out.
One criticism I have..well not a criticism but a flaw I can imagine being present in these kinds of studies..is that not all people handle or drive these states the same. For some people with less or no experience, I really can imagine it being weird and alien for them and having their brain activity look less coherent. Compare that to a seasoned person working with the medicine, or even a currandero who can sit there and sing icaros all night long and perform healings..what would the brain imaging of these people look like?
I am finding it hard to believe the conclusions that these people are coming to are entirely objective personally..even if the brain imaging seems to suggest this, based on what we know.
Also if I remember correctly, wasn't there an old ayahuasca study that found an increase in alpha coherence after ayahuasca administration? I know I have read that harmine produces an increase in alpha brainwaves somewhere. I wonder what results would be obtained if they administered harmine with psilocybin..would it be like ayahuasca?
Either way this is pretty awesome work.
I would also like to see some imaging of people taking bufotenine..sinse it seems to lack most if not all of the main mental/cognitive effects he described here of psilocybin, yet visually is extremely powerful and similar to other tryptamines.
However, I must say that I have this gut feeling that something does not make sense here.
The idea that psilocybin reduces my self introspection, results in states of de-coherence, and dissolves my experience of time if reference to the past or future etc is entirely counter intuitive for me based on my own experiences.
For one, I often feel like I have an increased ability to self reflect when I take psilocybin..like this is not debatable IMO. My ability to go within and self reflect is heightened. I and many many other people also claim to have experienced such things as "time travel" and states of consciousness where one seems to have an experience of being hyperaware of time. There is a whole hell of a lot of psychedelic phenomena that is not mentioned in this talk. Seeing faces in a wall is nothing.
I cant be the only one here who feels like a deep breakthrough cannot simply be summed up as a state of chaotic de-coherance in brain activity and a reduction of self reflection etc..something else is going on IMO.
Also with psychedelics when I am in a really good bliss mode, I feel like my brain activity must be far more coherent and synchronized than when in ordinary consciousness..not less coherent..and I believe that it IS more coherent, except when freaking out.
One criticism I have..well not a criticism but a flaw I can imagine being present in these kinds of studies..is that not all people handle or drive these states the same. For some people with less or no experience, I really can imagine it being weird and alien for them and having their brain activity look less coherent. Compare that to a seasoned person working with the medicine, or even a currandero who can sit there and sing icaros all night long and perform healings..what would the brain imaging of these people look like?
I am finding it hard to believe the conclusions that these people are coming to are entirely objective personally..even if the brain imaging seems to suggest this, based on what we know.
Also if I remember correctly, wasn't there an old ayahuasca study that found an increase in alpha coherence after ayahuasca administration? I know I have read that harmine produces an increase in alpha brainwaves somewhere. I wonder what results would be obtained if they administered harmine with psilocybin..would it be like ayahuasca?
Either way this is pretty awesome work.
I would also like to see some imaging of people taking bufotenine..sinse it seems to lack most if not all of the main mental/cognitive effects he described here of psilocybin, yet visually is extremely powerful and similar to other tryptamines.
There is the study that found an increase in both alpha and theta in ayahuasca drinkers..the opposite of what is being found with psilocybin..so that is very interesting and I would be willing to bet that the harmine plays a large role here.
I have had a number of people now tell me that they prefer to take some harmalas with mushrooms, as it feels like it helps to stabalize the trip etc..and I can attest as well that recently I have realized that I prefer psilocybin with some harmalas as well and it does seem to make it just like ayahuasca.
Also, if there is overactivity in this area of the brain in patients with depression, and psilocybin reduces activity there..how does this relate to serotonin? Depressed patients are often either low in serotonin, or have low receptor density..so does serotonin also play a modulatory role here, down regulating activity in this part of the brain?
Also, you can find lots of stuff out there in relation to medition like this..
skepticsontm.blogspot.ca
..that point to states of increased order and cohernace in the brain. If the mechanisms of psilocybin are psychedelics are so similar, than this does not make sense..
..Unless you find someone who knows how to consciously drive the psychedelic state, just as meditators sort of do while meditating...
Imagine if you could extract the exact neurotransmitters etc that are produced in deep meditation..and just shoot up some person with them in a lab while hooked up to an EEG..would you get the same results as the meditator? that would be VERY interesting to see.
Here is another relevant study that found an increase in Gamma coherence with ayahuasca, similar to meditation results..
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Now concider how music effects brainwave coherence..
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
..and apply that to the traditional context of psychedelic medicine use that nearly always involves rhythmic singing or dancing or playing of instruments.
I think that the "shamanic" process likely cannot be summed up by what we see in clinical psychedelic studies..which itself is an interesting thing to ponder. Tradition contexts of power plant healing are more complex.
Meditation and the brain: EEG Coherence
What is an EEG measurement? The human brain emits faint electrical impulses that can be measured and recorded by EEG (electroencephalographi...
skepticsontm.blogspot.ca
..that point to states of increased order and cohernace in the brain. If the mechanisms of psilocybin are psychedelics are so similar, than this does not make sense..
..Unless you find someone who knows how to consciously drive the psychedelic state, just as meditators sort of do while meditating...
Imagine if you could extract the exact neurotransmitters etc that are produced in deep meditation..and just shoot up some person with them in a lab while hooked up to an EEG..would you get the same results as the meditator? that would be VERY interesting to see.
Here is another relevant study that found an increase in Gamma coherence with ayahuasca, similar to meditation results..
EEG gamma coherence and other correlates of subjective reports during ayahuasca experiences - PubMed
The current study examined QEEG power and coherence of ayahuasca experiences with two experienced participants in a Brazilian jungle setting. An exploratory case series design was adopted for naturalistic field research. EEGs recorded during visual imagery was compared to eyes-closed baselines...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Now concider how music effects brainwave coherence..
Persistent patterns of brain activity: an EEG coherence study of the positive effect of music on spatial-temporal reasoning - PubMed
Motivated by predictions from the structured trion model of the cortex, behavioral experiments have demonstrated a causal short-term enhancement of spatial-temporal reasoning in college students following exposure to a Mozart sonata, but not in control conditions. The coherence analysis of...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
..and apply that to the traditional context of psychedelic medicine use that nearly always involves rhythmic singing or dancing or playing of instruments.
I think that the "shamanic" process likely cannot be summed up by what we see in clinical psychedelic studies..which itself is an interesting thing to ponder. Tradition contexts of power plant healing are more complex.