How traditional Amazonian Ayahuasca & snuff's differ from Western invented straight dmt

[tregar]

Condensed: Ray's 2011 Receptorome study reveals prescence/absence of anti-serotonin properties:

Why traditional Ayahuasca or snuff's are different as compared to the Western invented (not traditional) straight dmt, which only agonizes 20% of brain 5-ht:

This is simply some info you won't easily find...as this was discovered when reviewing the 2011 Thomas S Ray Receptorome study, and putting all the values into chart form. Even most academic and scholars don't seem to be aware of the recently published receptorome data for DMT from Thomas S. Ray's study, and it's comparison with the other natural psychedelics.

DMT lacks anti-serotonin properties. (Ref 1 & Ref 4)

What does this mean? That is for you to decide. Perhaps something or nothing. Just writing up a comparison with the other natural psychedelics to gain a better understanding of the science & overall picture. Comments are welcome. Just showing that dmt on it's own may have different properites and effects then when it is "married" (Ayahuasca terminology) with components of traditional Amazonian snuff's or Caapi (ie) dreamed as an admixture.

Caapi's 2nd largest beta carboline alkaloid: Tetrahydroharmine (THH) appears to play an important role in blocking serotonin which happens when 5-ht1a is agonized, as dmt does not do this by itself, but requires either caapi or components of Amazonian snuff to do this, ie teamwork. THH also agonizes all 3 adrenal receptors (a2a, a2b, and a2c).

The teamwork of all the alkaloids together are stronger than just one part, Caapi + leaf specifically for example is the whole sum of the experience as eliquently written by Shanon:

Antipodes of the Mind, page 385:

Significantly, what people feel when under the Ayahuasca intoxication is that she brings them in touch with the anima mundi or the Divine consciousness which is the Ground of all Being, the source of all knowledge, the fountain of all wisdom. In a direct, non-mediated fashion drinkers also feel that it is this consciousness that is the source of the visions and the insights associated with them. When the force of the inebriation is especially strong, drinkers feel that the boundaries between this consciousness and their own individual one are less and less defined. In the limit, I and God become one. All that can be known is part and parcel of the Divine mind, hence also my mind.

This cosmic account of the Ayahuasca experience is, of course, reminiscent of ideas that have been proposed in the mystical literature throughout the ages. It is in line with what has been called the perennial philosophy (see Huxley, 1944).

2011 Thomas S. Ray study: Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min

LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00

(these serotonin filters/gates/barriers/doors make up >80% of brain 5-ht & are broken down when 5-ht1a is agonized)

Real life examples that occur when serotonin filters are broken down at 5-ht1a AND the psychedelic molecule works in the place of serotonin at the other 20% of brain 5-ht (everything that is not 5-ht1a): music sounds better, infinite beauty is easily perceived, feelings of universal eternal Love, spiritual things and qualities take on a significance that is utterly stupefying, etc.

Dmt by itself has been found in the Receptorome study to not block serotonin...while the following traditional team players have been found to strongly block serotonin: 5-ho-dmt in Amazonian snuffs, 5-meo-dmt in Amazonian snuffs and the 2nd largest alkaloid in caapi (thh or tetrahydroharmine). All 3 are thus anti-serotonin, and surprise: traditional.

Serotonin blocking is a main effect of all the natural oral entheogens like the semi-synthetic LSD, mescaline, Ayahuasca, mushrooms, 5-meo-dmt & bufotenine (found in snuffs). See 2011 receptorome chart below.

Ibogaine inhibits both serotonin and dopamine reuptake transporters (it is an SDRI or serotonin & dopamine reuptake inhibitor). (Ref 6)

New discovery: the recently discovered adrenoglomerulotropine (a hormone of the pineal gland, otherwise known as 6-Methoxytetrahydroharman) (Ref 2) is an isomer of tetrahydroharmine, found in caapi. Caapi was said by the Indians to have Telepathine qualities as Ayahuasca was said to facilitate telepathic communication among tribal members.

DMT is super potent at the other 20% of brain 5-ht receptor sites, way exceeding even psilocin (see chart below), but in doing so, it must give up 5-ht1a binding, (serotonin blocking) which makes up over 80% of brain 5-ht, so when you combine admixture with components of Amazonian snuff's or caapi you get a "team action".

LSD scientist & founder of Heffter Institute Dr. Nichols:

LSD has very strong potency in blocking the action of serotonin. The morpholide lysergamide cousin had only about 1/10th the potency in blocking serotonin. Of the 5 diferent dialkylamides we studied LSD was the most potent and specific serotonin antagonist. (Ref 7)

Dr. Nichols

5-ht1a makes up >80% of brain 5-ht...5-ht1a agonism blocks serotonin. (Ref 3)

Thomas S. Ray, Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome (2010):

Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome

We currently understand the mental effects of psychedelics to be caused by agonism or partial agonism of 5-HT2A (and possibly 5-HT2C) receptors, and we understand that psychedelic drugs, especially phenylalkylamines, are fairly selective for these two receptors. This manuscript is a reference...

journals.plos.org

hxxp://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0009019
Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min

LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00 (make up >80% of brain 5-ht)
LSD: 5ht1b = 4.00, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.19, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.41
LSD: 5ht1d = 3.70, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 3.40, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.48
LSD: 5ht1e = 2.62, DMT: = 3.28, psilocin = 3.03, mescaline = 3.16, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.72
LSD: 5ht2a = 3.54, DMT: = 2.58, psilocin = 2.14, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.98
LSD: 5ht2b = 3.11, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 4.00, mescaline = 3.97, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.69
LSD: 5ht2c = 3.11, DMT: = 3.42, psilocin = 2.52, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.55
LSD: 5ht5a = 3.64, DMT: = 3.16, psilocin = 2.83, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.84
LSD: -5ht6 = 3.75, DMT: = 3.35, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.73
LSD: -5ht7 = 3.77, DMT: = 4.00, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.69
LSD: ---D1 = 2.34, DMT: = 3.51, psilocin = 3.37, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.38
LSD: -A-2A = 2.93, DMT: = 2.75, psilocin = 1.36, mescaline = 2.92, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.00 (aesthetic/beauty adrenal a2a)
LSD: -A-2B = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.57, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.86 (aesthetic/beauty adrenal a2b)
LSD: -A-2C = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.03, mescaline = 4.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.57 (aesthetic/beauty adrenal a2c)

As we go thru day to day life, the brain serotonin filters (or gates) are in place so that we will not be overwhelmed by the perception of the way things would appear to an un-filtered mind, or "Mind at Large" as Aldous Huxley describes it in "Doors of Perception" as "infinite or eternal". (Ref 5) He also referred to the visions as coming from "the other world" in his book "Moksha". I prefer to think of it in similar terms as well "the spirit world" or "the other world". 5-ht1a inhibition while the psychedelic molecule works in the place of serotonin at the other 20% of brain 5-ht theoretically causes this filter system to be lifted, and the infinite mind to manifest in combination with dmt for example.

Technical analysis with help from Ray's study: these molecules can only "do so much" on their own, as the docking size of the molecule to the receptor is like a key fits a hole. Example: LSD is super potent at almost all the brain 5-ht receptors thanks to it's large molecular size, but it must give up binding strength at adrenal sites a2b and a2c so that it can still hit 80% of brain 5-ht at 5-h1a with great strength.

Mescaline is the world's strongest adrenal a2c agonist (off the charts strong with 4.00 at a2c). This helps to explain how mescaline is more aesthetic and primal compared to the more analytical LSD, which lacks a bit aesthetically. Unlike what Wikipedia states, mescaline has no activity at 5-ht2a.

5-meo-dmt is off the charts strong with 4.00 at 5-ht1a, and can easily obliterate or shatter the ego into a million pieces even at the tiniest of doses due to it's extreme strength at over 80% of brain 5-ht (5-ht1a).

Additional 1988 study which backs up the 2011 Thomas S. Ray receptorome study:

Pharmacology of 5-hydroxytryptamine-1A receptors which inhibit cAMP production in hippocampal and cortical neurons in primary culture. Pharmacology of 5-hydroxytryptamine-1A receptors which inhibit cAMP production in hippocampal and cortical neurons in primary culture - PubMed

5-HT1A agonist: All the tryptamine derivatives substituted in position 5 of the indol were potent agonists [5-HT, 5-CT, 5-MeO-N,N-DMT, 5-methoxytryptamine, and bufotenine (5-ho-DMT)],

whereas tryptamine, N-methyltryptamine (NMT), and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) were very poor agonists.

N-Methyltryptamine (NMT) found in barks: N-Methyltryptamine - Wikipedia

Real life example: Oroc's experiment of combining 5-meo-dmt with DMT sounds imho very much like a short beautiful transcendental Ayahuasca experience, from his book "Tryptamine Palace":

DMT + tiny amounts of 5-meo-dmt (from Oroc's book):

As an experiment (and in a foreign land) I smoked the last of the Bufo alvarius venom (the story of whose collection is described within the pages of Tryptamine Palace) with some ‘regular’ DMT (extracted from Jurema Preta.). In the vast majority of my early nigerine (DMT) experiences, I encountered visual fields of ‘dots’ that would come together to form images, much like the pointillism style of painting developed by Georges Seurat or the Australian Aboriginal song-line paintings.

With the addition of the 5-MeO-DMT containing toad-venom to the DMT however, the visual characteristic was completely different and totally unique to my experiences so far. On this occasion there was a complete lack of ‘dots’ or ‘points’ of any kind, the fine lines of the constantly changing imagery were like those painted with a single-hair brush on Tibetan thangkas and due to the overwhelming artistry of what I was seeing, I could only think of the vaulted ceiling of the Sistine Chapel in comparison.

Sistene Chapel: This was without a doubt the most ‘visionary’ experience I have ever been fortunate enough to encounter and I lay there with my eyes shut watching the most fantastic parade of the Collective Unconsciousness imaginable, wishing that it would never end, and as I sit here now I can not even describe one tiny corner of it, since every image in the multitude of imagery was in such constant motion that they defied all but a glimpse. And then moments later, like a tent collapsing when its ropes are cut, the vision is gone. Leaving only a struggle of words to explain it, since nothing before or after has come close to this experiences visual majesty.

This experience leads to the interesting question of selectively combining DMT and 5-MeO-DMT for a more visionary and somewhat less overwhelmingly transcendental experience. (Or for the other way around). This combining of the two endogenous entheogens is being tested in changa blends (reportedly at a 90% DMT to 10% 5-MeO-DMT ratio), while many Pharmahuasca urban-shamans are also adding 5-MeO-DMT to their ayahuasca-analogues to transform and deepen that experience. It seems likely to me that the combining of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT in various ratios and manners will only become more popular as the exponentially increasing number of psychonauts search for new psychological terrain to explore.

Another example below is a 45 minute visual session report from Benny Shannon with Ayahuasca. I found it inspirational and a good description of an Ayahuasca journey:

From Page 138 of "Antipodes of the Mind":

By way of conclusion, I present two additional examples. Unlike all other examples in this chapter, which consist of specific visualizations pertaining to specific content items, these examples are records of sessions. They cite or summarize the various visualizations experienced by one individual drinker in one setting. I bring them in order to give the reader a more direct feel of the visionary experience induced by Ayahuasca.

The first example consists of a 'real-time' verbatim report of what I saw in one session in which I partook of Ayahuasca by myself. I spoke aloud describing what I was seeing and notes were taken by the person who watched me. This session is not part of the core corpus and it is the only session of which I have such a recording. Overall, I would characterize this session as one of moderate strength. In it, there were no grand visions and most of the visualizations in it are snapshots and relatively simple scenes. Furthermore, in this session I had very few ideations and no special psychological insights or spiritual experiences whatsoever.

Yet, I find this report to be especially valuable in portraying the general flavour of Ayahuasca visions. Manifest in it is a fairy tale-like ambience and an overall air of magnificence and enchantment. Also featuring in the report are several details that are characteristic of Ayahuasca visions in general—these include fire (note the various ways it is incorporated within the narrative of the vision), light-producing objects, carriages, and processions. Also recurrent in the report are turning movements, upward movements, and looking forward far into the distance. One comment made by a person seen in this visual sequence is a good example of how ideas relate to Ayahuasca visualizations. The entire sequence lasted about forty minutes:

A golden crystal chalice.

Flowers. In the flowers there are birds and insects and the birds go up and up.

A wheel is turning and there is a rod that is turning round and round. From it, a fire ignites.
An old man holds a taper and from it the fire climbs up and up.

A futuristic city.

A Chinese king is sitting and turning his parasol. Now he is in his study. In the background, birds are kissing one another.

A great hall—like an animated movie.

There is a code here—like that of Morse or the genetic code. The code is constituted by many, many dots, the density between which varies. All this is a language calling to be deciphered.

There is something that pushes up and up. It is like a mountain train. All the time it goes up and up.

A car from the 1920s. Delightfully magnificent. From it emerge light and flowers. Advancing with this light, we pass along gold-plated walls and come out through a staircase made out of gold and ivory. The steps go up and down and reach a theatre.

Up in the heavens there is a woman escorted by a man. In the woman's hand there is a torch that swirls. Lights come out of it in the form of flags and the flags turn into hats full of gems. The gems are sparkling.

A scene in Europe in the sixteenth or perhaps the eighteenth century. Knights are riding. They are mounted upon magic motorcycles full of colours and light. All is like a cartoon and enchanted. It is all part of big procession. There are also small dwarfs there. Two of them are holding a banner with the insignia of the sovereign.

An Indian is smoking a big pipe. Through an old telescope, a man is peering into the far reaches of the universe. A view of the planet Earth turning round and round.

Beautiful gardens like Versailles and the Tuilleries.

There are ballerinas there. Like a cabaret. Their thighs are exposed. One woman gets to the balustrade and is watching the audience.

The Indian is smiling. The message is that 'all of these are the expressions of the same source, a source of bounty and grace'.

In a King's reception hall. There are chalices full of wine. Long processions of carriages proceed further and further. Slowly, all the time, the horsemen are pushing forward. In the hall, the seats are made out of silver. There is a feast. A big pot is placed in the middle. A fruit salad is offered in goblets of finely polished, very clear glass. Slowly, the chef pours some sort of syrup or gooey topping. The sauce covers the fruit and then it ascends upwards.

An elephant lifts up its trunk high and looks far, far forward. Up there are birds and they are looking in my direction. There are flowers, and butterflies are flying from flower to flower. All are washed in the light of the sun.

Women are dancing. Carriages come one after the other and the wine flows. An officer approaches a carriage and salutes. The footman bows and opens the carriage's door. The Queen is stepping out."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The second example was provided by a young man who partook of Ayahuasca in private sessions conducted in Europe. This individual is not amongst the informants whose data are analysed in this book; his report was communicated to me just when the typeset of this monograph was being sent to the publisher. I present this report as an illustrative example of the experiences of a first-timer. The following is a slightly edited synopsis of what this person saw during his first two sessions with the brew. I shall note that while the report is rich in details, the intoxication experienced was not especially strong; by the present structural typology, all items seen would be characterized as single, simple images.

Animals. Those seen most frequently were serpents, felines, and birds. Some of the serpents were ornate, like Chinese dragons; the felines included tigers and black pumas; the birds included parrots, peacocks, and toucans. Also seen were a galloping horse, dragons, monsters of all sorts, and evil beasts; with some of the latter blood was associated.

Many human persons were seen. Amongst these were Indians and a sensuous Caribbean dancer. A person present in the session appeared to have the face of a gorilla with the beak of a bird.

Palaces and mansions. Amongst the buildings seen were skyscrapers and pyramids. Also seen were interior decorations of buildings. These were very exquisitely ornamented; many were gilded.

Cities. Many different ones were seen; some had futuristic architecture.

Landscapes. These included forests, open deserts, river scenes, and scenes under water. Associated with the latter were corals and 'tornadoes offish'. Overall, the landscapes had an ambience of serenity and silence.

Especially frequent were disembodied eyes; many of these pertained to big cats. Other items noted: an Indian in a boat, an old woman turning white and transforming into a young girl, cars of the 1950s that were colourfully painted in a style which was 'rather kitsch', streams of gold.

The trees outside looked like goddesses.

Shanon "Significantly, the items reported by this informant include all those that are typical of Ayahuasca visions. As such, this report, I find, is a good example supporting the cultural non-specificity of these visions."

Highly recommend reading "Antipodes of the Mind" by Shanon, as I concur with the same content & style of visions seen by not only Shanon but the 300 other interviewed in his book.

Example 1: was shown an overhead view of the lost city of Atlantis, zoomed in for a bird's eye view of the entire complex (it really existed).

Example 2: flew over what looked like Los Angles, as I had a bird's eye view of all the homes and swimming pools below, this went on for at least 1 to 2 minutes, absolutely breathtaking.

Example 3: was taken on a tour of a distant island's tiki's...as a young beautiful native island girl waved her hand to show me that these tikis marked the boundaries of their sacred spaces...then was shown snapshots of the amazing waterfalls on the island.

Example 4: have seen the most beautiful naked female forms (like a comic but way beyond) with dazzling detail, color, and breath taking beauty, exceeds anything an artist could ever paint. 4k has nothing on this, the visions are like infinite k or what say 100k hdtv would look like. Caapi + hawaiian psychotria is the bomb.

References:

(1) Ray, Thomas S. "Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome", Feb 2 2010, PLOS one research article.

(2) Naranjo, Claudio. "Psychotropic Properties of the Harmala Alkaloids", Ethnopharmacologic search for psychoactive drugs, Jan 28-30, 1967.

(3) Nichols, Charles D. "Serotonin Receptor Signaling and Hallucinogenic Drug Action", The Heffter Review of Psychedelic Research, Volume 2, 2001.

(4) Dumuis, Sebben, Bocaert. "Pharmacology of 5-hydroxytryptamine-1A receptors which inhibit cAMP production in hippocampal and cortical neurons in primary culture", Molecular Pharmacology, Feb 1988; 33(2):178-86.

(5) Goodman Ph.D, Neil. "The Serotonergic System and Mysticism", 2002.

(6) Bulling, Schicker, Zhang, Steinkellner, Stockner, Gruber, Boehm, Freissmuth, Rudnick, Sitte, Sandtner, "The Mechanistic Basis for Noncompetitive Ibogaine Inhibition of Serotonin and Dopamine Transporters", J Biol Chem. 2012 May 25; 287(22): 18524-18534.

(7) Nichols Ph.D, David. "LSD and it's Lysergamide Cousins", The Heffter Review of Psychedelic Research. 2001;2:80-87.

 

[tregar]

Caapi strain variety is likely cause for higher natural tetrahydroharmine amounts. However, it is the 2nd largest alkaloid in caapi. Really good expensive lab equipment is needed to test for THH (like Dr. Callaway used) otherwise it will likely show up as additional harmine...and you will barely see any tetrahydroharmine at all in caapi...no amateur equipment, this is important.

THH is the "coffee of the harmalas" as ron69 used to state, it probably also has around the same serotonin reuptake power as ibogaine, mescaline, or acid thanks to published receptorome data, but we will never know as no scientist has ever tackled thh receptorome data for thh at SERT (only ibogaine). As Dr. Shulgin once stated "research on thh is imperative!" but looks like it will never be done, the forgotten alkaloid. Ibogaine and THH likely both work thru SERT (explained below) to block serotonin (remember dmt can not block serotonin on it's own, it lacks this important quality).

If THH binds anything like ibogaine to SERT (and it is most likely very similar) then 150mg of tetrahydroharmine is probably subjectively equivalent to around 150mcg of acid in terms of both mental coffee like stimulation and serotonin reuptake inhibition strength. When the brew is combined with around say 30g of hawaiian psychotria (equivalent to average 60mg of leaf actives) then a rough strength equivalent could be postulated for the brew in comparison to Hoffman's elixir.

Ibogaine binds directly to the serotonin transporter (SERT), so it does not have to target the 5-ht1a substrate pathway. This could be likely what happens with tetrahydroharmine, as THH and ibogaine have similar basic beta-carboline structures.

Thomas S. Ray's 2010 receptorome study shows a value of 3.57 at SERT for Ibogaine (4.00 is max). Ibogaine has been shown to inhibit serotonin transporter (SERT) noncompetitively, in contrast to all other known inhibitors, which are competitive with substrate. LSD has a value of 3.73 at 5-ht1a substrate, and mescaline has a value of 3.61 at 5-ht1a substrate, dmt on it's own has been shown in two studies to totally lack a value at 5-ht1a (0.00), and thus requires either thh in caapi or snuff components to block the reuptake of serotonin, important teamwork going on.

Thomas S. Ray Receptorome study, 4.00=max, 0.00=min.

Ibogaine: 4.00 Sigma2, 3.57 SERT, 3.02 DAT, 3.01 NMDA, 2.88 KOR, 2.67 MOR, 2.55 Sigma1, 2.22 M3, 2.16 5ht2a, 1.96 M1, 1.72 M2, 1.47 D3;

0.00: DOR, 5ht1b, 5ht1d, 5ht1a, H1, 5ht2c, D2, D1, Beta1; ND: Alpha2C, D5, D4, Alpha2B, Imidazoline1, NET, Alpha2A, 5ht5a, 5ht6, 5ht7, Alpha1B, 5ht1e, 5ht2b, M4, M5, Alpha1A, H2, CB2, CB1, Ca+Channel, Beta2

ibogaine (inhibits both serotonin and dopamine reuptake transporters, it is an SDRI or serotonin & dopamine reuptake inhibitor)

tetrahydroharmine (serotonin reuptake inhibitor, it is an SRI)

2011 Thomas S. Ray study: Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min

LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00

(these serotonin filters/gates/barriers/doors make up >80% of brain 5-ht & are broken down when 5-ht1a is agonized)

Real life examples that occur when serotonin filters are broken down at 5-ht1a (or SERT is agonized by ibogaine or THH) AND the psychedelic molecule works in the place of serotonin at the other 20% of brain 5-ht (everything that is not 5-ht1a, example: 30 grams of hawaiian psychotria brew which contains on average 60mg of actives): music sounds better, infinite beauty is easily perceived, feelings of universal eternal Love, spiritual things and qualities take on a significance that is utterly stupefying, etc.

Dmt by itself has been found in the Receptorome study to not block serotonin...while the following traditional team players have been found to strongly block serotonin: 5-ho-dmt in Amazonian snuffs, 5-meo-dmt in Amazonian snuffs and the 2nd largest alkaloid in caapi (thh or tetrahydroharmine). All 3 are thus anti-serotonin, and no surprise: traditional.
Why traditional Ayahuasca or snuff's are different as compared to the Western invented (not traditional) straight dmt, which only agonizes 20% of brain 5-ht:

Brief interesting concluding remarks from a few authors who describe personally perceived subjective differences:

professor8 (here at this forum, see his vitamin c experiments: 11/1/2010):

Tetrahydroharmine has the ability to raise your vibration in a most powerful, yet subtle way. It brings a crystalline prismy texture to spice and adds a super clear watery dimension to Aya, like looking down through 10meters of shimmering Caribbean Sea on clear blue day.

It brings a dimension of pure light to the entheogenic experience and encourages entities & intelligences of only the Highest Order. If one is not accustomed to perceiving these experiences with a spiritual perspective most of the nuances & subtleties THH brings on are overlooked and remain unseen and one would better enjoy Harmaline as a house painter chooses a roller over a brush, its about preference & choice.

Quote from TIHKAL by Dr. Shulgin "More studies on tetrahydroharmine are absolutely imperative."

Trips (from this forum here on 12/2/2011):

As to how the THH altered the experience -> I find rue extract+DMT to be very similar to mushrooms. I found the THH added to the rue+DMT to shift the experience to a state much closer to that provided by LSD. It was more clear, more energetic, more euphoric, more focused, and when confusion struck it was definitely more "acid-like".

The world is moving in the direction of the Left Brain: technology and science. What the world needs is to move in the direction of Right Brain development: empathy, spirituality, connectedness. Compounds like tetrahydroharmine in Caapi could be said to improve emotional intelligence. Is this component of caapi a smart-nutrient for the right side of the brain? you be the judge.

Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 428:

My experience with smoked DMT was qualitatively different from the realms and beings ayahuasca introduced me to. For whereas the ayahuasca worlds seemed rich, luxurious, and abundant in the transformations of organic and supernatural life, DMT brought me to a world--or to some aspect of a world--that appeared from the outset to be highly artificial, constructed, inorganic, and in essence technological.

Daniel Pinchbeck, "Breaking Open the Head":

For many people, Ayahuasca-a slowed-down low-res interface of the DMT flash-seems to convey strong messages from the natural world, of nature as sentient energy and spirit matter, of the need to protect the planet we have been given. Ayahuasca is my favorite entheogen.

Yage whispers that human beings are meant to be gardeners of this reality, journeyers, storytellers and singers, weavers of the sacred. DMT, on the other hand, conveys no overt human or humane message.

Gayle Highpine, "Unraveling the Mystery of the Origin of Ayahuasca":

The leaves were Ayahuasca’s “helpers,” I was told, and their purpose was to “brighten and clarify” the visions. The vine is like a cave, and the leaf is like a torch you use to see what is inside the cave. The vine is like a book, and the leaf is like the candle you use to read the book. The vine is like a snowy television set, and the leaf helps to tune in the picture. There was a subtle attitude that the need for strong leaf was the sign of a beginner: An experienced ayahuasquero could see the visions even in low light

Ayahuasca vine is not visionary in the same way as DMT. The leaf helps illuminate the content, but the teachings are credited to the vine. Vine visions are “frequently associated with writing, to a code that is present in visions…or in the ‘books’ where the spirits keep the secrets of the forest.” The vine is The Teacher, The Healer, The Guide. The purpose of drinking Ayahuasca is to receive the message the vine imparts. This is why it is the vine, not the leaf, that is classified by the type of vision it gives. “For them the vine is, in truth, a living guide, a friend, a paternal authority”.

Patrick Lundborg, "Psychedelia", page 61:

A traditional saying among Ayahuasqueros is that the jungle vine brings powerful realistic visions, but that the chacruna brings light to these visions. According to the view of Western research, this is not the case; essentially the entire psycho-activity resides with the chacruna leaves DMT content.

Ayahuasca researcher Luis Eduardo Luna recently observed that when surveying tribal lore praising the jungle vine, he could find no traces of similar mythology around the two most common plant admixtures; psychotria viridis or diplpterys cabrerana, even though these DMT plants to a Westerner would appear much more important than the harmala alkaloids of the B. caapi liana.

Graham st. John, "Mystery School in Hyperspace: A Cultural History of DMT", see his interview at Reality Sandwich:

Halfway thru the interview, Graham recites an interesting quote from an Ayahuasquero who gives his insight into dmt alone vs Ayahuasca.

69ron:

DMT used alone, produces an intense visual experience, often very chaotic and fast moving, and quite amazing to watch. The visions of DMT alone usually lack meaningful content. The DMT visions are often just constantly morphing colors and shapes. Most of it makes absolutely no sense. Rarely will the visuals present to you a full blown dream with people, places, a story line, etc. But this does sometimes happen. But usually you just get a bunch of bazaar visions that are difficult to understand.

When combined, as in ayahuasca, the harmalas brings a dreamy quality to the DMT experience that makes it more like one is experiencing an actual dream, not just a bunch of fancy colors. With the two together, you have the visuals of DMT, plus the dream content of the harmalas. The harmalas are the boss here in this combination if used in ayahuasca proportions where the harmalas are not just used as an MAOI but is used specifically to allow dream consciousness to be entered by the user. DMT is just an additive used to increase the visual portion of the harmala induced dreams.

Authentic Ayahuasca, high in harmine, thh & harmaline, and low on DMT, is like entering a full blown 3D dream with dream characters, storylines, etc. This can be a life changing experience. It’s more like sitting in a theater for several hours absorbing a story that’s meaningful because its about you. You leave with memories of places, things, people, etc., and possibly a new view on life.

"Articulations" by Julian Palmer (bottom of page 77):

It came to my attention after an embarrassing number of years, that taking freebase crystal DMT orally was not as potent, colourful, or clear as taking the equivalent amount of DMT in a tea that was brewed from the plant (example: hawaiian psychotria). For many years, I couldn't see how there could be a difference, but after doing some comparisons, it was obvious that the tea was much better, and the experiences resulting from the crystalline extract were inferior.

You could take twice or even three times as much DMT crystal as the equivalent in brew, and the experience from the crystal would never be as bright or full as that from the tea. Why could this be?

He answers his own question over the many paragraphs thereafter.

In his new book "How Soon is Now?" Daniel Pinchbeck mentions that Ayahuasca is his favorite, same here.

James Oroc:

Entheogens are truly windows to the sacred, and not merely curiosities that somehow trick and confuse our mechanical consciousness.

 

[strtman]

Thanks for this information. Reading this post and your earlier posts, I am not sure if I understand it well. Can you please review my own recap?

The brain does have a lot of receptors, one of these is 5-ht. This group 5-ht is a cluster of many receptors, like 5-ht1a, 5-ht1b, 5-ht1c etc. The dominant one is 5-ht1a with a presence of 80%.

When CAAPI is consumed, the tetra hydro harmine attacks the 5-ht1a receptor and blocks the serotonine. If at the same moment DMT is taken, the DMT replaces all the serotonine is the other 20% of 5-ht receptors. This team work generates the beautiful visions.

I try to get a 'simple' explanation of this complicated but interesting subject .

 

[Sabnock1990]

As far as i know THH is not a 1A agonist, it's a weak Serotonin transporter inhibitor (Serotonin reuptake inhibitor), which would have similar but weaker actions compared to SSRI's and MAO-A inhibition, which raises Serotonin enough to activate the 1A receptor and create a feedback loop which ends up reducing Serotonin, if i understand correctly. So as far as i know, there's nothing in particular special about THH if we're talking about it's Serotonin reuptake properties. As for it binding to and activating the 1A receptor, do we have any sources that state this?

I've personally even felt 1A agonism from Moclobemide on it's own, as 1A agonism is said to be among the majority of benefits from consuming SSRI's and MAOI's. It gives me a very similar/the same feeling as i get from consuming Limonene which is a 1A agonist, so MAO-A inhibition definitely raises Serotonin enough to activate the 1A receptor.

 

[tregar]

Strtman, beautiful explanation.

ShamensStamen, that is the great mystery. If you click on the Thomas S. Ray study above, you will find that Ibogaine blocks the reuptake of serotonin (and dopamine as a bonus) but has zero activity at 5-ht1a. Some molecules appear to accomplish this activity without 5-ht1a agonization.

As Dr Goodman states in his paper (see references above) one prominent tale tale sign of blocking serotonin is that mild stimulation results. THH as ron69 once stated, is the coffee of the beta-carbolines. Coca leaf even blocks serotonin.

As ShamensStamen states elsewhere, he and others experience extreme states of spirituality with just using rue and admixture, rue has no activity at 5-ht1a, as the one paper I have seen shows harmine and harmaline to have zero activity at 5-ht1a, so there must be other mysterious processes at play, I will leave it at that.

The main point is that DMT alone appears to result in very different visions than with Ayahuasca, whether or not DMT has or does not have anti-serotonin properties may be a contributing factor, relying on teamwork or marriage of it with components that have these properties if it does not. Whether or not these studies are accurate is another potential problem. The mystery continues.

 

[tregar]

In answer to ShamensStamen's question in post #4

As for THH binding to and activating the 5-ht1a receptor, do we have any sources that state this?

Ibogaine binds directly to the serotonin transporter (SERT), so it does not have to target the 5-ht1a substrate pathway. This could be likely what happens with tetrahydroharmine, as THH and ibogaine have similar basic beta-carboline structures.

Thomas S. Ray's study shows a value of 3.57 at SERT for Ibogaine (4.00 is max). Ibogaine has been shown to inhibit serotonin transporter (SERT) noncompetitively, in contrast to all other known inhibitors, which are competitive with substrate.

Thomas S. Ray Receptorome study, 4.00=max, 0.00=min.

Ibogaine: 4.00 Sigma2, 3.57 SERT, 3.02 DAT, 3.01 NMDA, 2.88 KOR, 2.67 MOR, 2.55 Sigma1, 2.22 M3, 2.16 5ht2a, 1.96 M1, 1.72 M2, 1.47 D3;

0.00: DOR, 5ht1b, 5ht1d, 5ht1a, H1, 5ht2c, D2, D1, Beta1; ND: Alpha2C, D5, D4, Alpha2B, Imidazoline1, NET, Alpha2A, 5ht5a, 5ht6, 5ht7, Alpha1B, 5ht1e, 5ht2b, M4, M5, Alpha1A, H2, CB2, CB1, Ca+Channel, Beta2

top = ibogaine (inhibits both serotonin and dopamine reuptake transporters, it is an SDRI or serotonin & dopamine reuptake inhibitor)
bottom = tetrahydroharmine (serotonin reuptake inhibitor, it is an SRI)

 

[Sabnock1990]

So i was correct in my understanding, that it's the increase in Serotonin by inhibition of the Serotonin Transporter that then activates Serotonin 1A? If so, then it's said that the same thing also applies to MAO-A inhibition itself (since it too raises Serotonin levels, along with Noradrenaline levels, however Dopamine ime seems to be relatively unaffected, i think) and so the increase in Serotonin via MAO-A inhibition would also activate Serotonin 1A, which i have noticed with Moclobemide as well, so it could be said that the MAO-A inhibition in general, regardless of THH, can be important. It's also said that supplementation with Tryptophan or 5-HTP can also activate the Serotonin 1A receptor by increasing Serotonin content. So i don't think there's anything particularly special about Caapi or about THH's weak Serotonin reuptake inhibition, i think Rue/purified Harmala extracts or even Moclobemide would be just fine in this regard.

 

[tregar]

Yes, you are right ShamensStamen, it is absolutley possible. I would imagine the SRI properities to probably be around the level of mushrooms.

 

[tregar]

This quote from Trips might help provide some clarity:

Quote from TIHKAL by Dr. Shulgin "More studies on tetrahydroharmine are absolutely imperative."

Trips (from this forum here on 12/2/2011):

As to how the THH altered the experience -> I find rue extract+DMT to be very similar to mushrooms. I found the THH added to the rue+DMT to shift the experience to a state much closer to that provided by LSD. It was more clear, more energetic, more euphoric, more focused, and when confusion struck it was definitely more "acid-like".

professor8 (here at this forum, see his vitamin c experiments: 11/1/2010):

Tetrahydroharmine has the ability to raise your vibration in a most powerful, yet subtle way. It brings a crystalline prismy texture to spice and adds a super clear watery dimension to Aya, like looking down through 10meters of shimmering Caribbean Sea on clear blue day.

It brings a dimension of pure light to the entheogenic experience and encourages entities & intelligences of only the Highest Order. If one is not accustomed to perceiving these experiences with a spiritual perspective most of the nuances & subtleties THH brings on are overlooked and remain unseen and one would better enjoy Harmaline as a house painter chooses a roller over a brush, its about preference & choice.

 

[dragonrider]

Aren't harmala alkaloids supposed to increase levels of dopamine and noradrenalin as well? That could also account for the euphoria. Probably better even, than just serotonin.

Would also explain why DMT would become more like LSD. Acid is active on dopamine and noradrenalin receptors.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Dragonrider, they do seem to increase the amount of Noradrenaline, although Dopamine i'm not sure about and i don't think they do much for Dopamine. If i take Harmalas regularly for a bit i definitely feel my Serotonin and Noradrenaline levels rise and Dopamine like ends up falling to the background to where it's not really noticeable much at all apparently. But, if i take Mucuna/L-Dopa extract like a couple hours before the Harmalas, the extra Dopamine feels like it balances things out so i end up feeling the Dopamine as well as the rise in Serotonin and Noradrenaline, although because L-Dopa turns into Dopamine which then turns into Noradrenaline, gotta be a little careful with that combo but so far haven't noticed any negatives but i do think my Noradrenaline levels rise a bit more with the L-Dopa and Harmalas compared to without the L-Dopa. I've also noticed Moclobemide is the same in that it's Serotonergic and Noradrenergic but not Dopaminergic. Dopamine relies on MAO-B, whereas Serotonin and Noradrenaline relies on MAO-A, hence why MAO-B inhibitors are used in Parkinsons Disease. If MAO-A inhibition does do anything for Dopamine, then it seems only mildly compared to Serotonin and Noradrenaline, if i'm not mistaken, at least in my experience so far. I do think Harmalas can potentiate the L-Dopa but i'm not sure if it's just the L-Dopa being potentiated and thus Dopamine and Noradrenaline, or if it's just the increase in Noradrenaline that i feel being potentiated. I also read awhile back that Harmaline may inhibit COMT if i remember correctly, but i don't know how potently if it does but if it does then that could potentiate L-Dopa, but idk what impact COMT inhibition would have on Dopamine levels in general.

 

[Sabnock1990]

"As to how the THH altered the experience -> I find rue extract+DMT to be very similar to mushrooms. I found the THH added to the rue+DMT to shift the experience to a state much closer to that provided by LSD. It was more clear, more energetic, more euphoric, more focused"

I haven't used THH with my Rue and DMT and personally get clear, energetic, euphoric, focused, etc, and it feels nothing like mushrooms. Mushrooms with Rue on the other hand, feels way more like DMT.