I didn't know I had Synesthesia

[Macre]

I've learnt something very interesting about myself today, I have a type of synesthesia. I don't smell colours or anything like that, which is how I always imagined synesthesia. I have a type of synesthesia called spatial sequence synesthesia.

When I think of numbers, days of the week, letters in the alphabet, months or years; I place them in a position in a kind of physical mental space. I never really thought anything about it, didn't think it was normal or abnormal.

I was reading up on synesthesia today, and found out what I experience is a form of synesthesia. I asked a couple of people how they think about numbers, or days of the week etc; and they all basically confirmed that they didn't think of them in any particular way at all.

I was always fascinated by synesthesia, when people hear sounds and see colours etc. I've had mild experiences of this in the past when using mescaline, I never ever knew though, up until today, that I have a form of synesthesia myself...cool 8)

Peace

Macre

 

[Mitakuye Oyasin]

I have something similar, with certain words I get certain tastes in my mouth, the same tastes related to the same words. I noticed it as a child but figured everyone had it. There is a book you might want to check out called "The Man Who Tasted Shapes" about a guy with Synesthesia. There is a funny story where he is preparing a chicken dish and wants to keep cooking it until the chicken takes on the spiky sharp shape/taste that he likes. I think a lot of us have this to some degree with various sensory cross over. The thing that really interests me in the dolphin and whale brain. It has a lobe that no other animal brain seems to have where all sensory input goes first, before it is sent to the various parts of the brain that handle sight, smell, taste, touch or hearing. Perhaps dolphins and whales are truly experiencing full Synesthesia.

 

[universecannon]

Language itself is really a form of synesthesia..A few people have said this, but Dennis McKenna's book on his life with Terence riffed about it in the most logical way that I've seen

I mean think about it. When we communicate I can have an image in my head..say an image of a mushroom. Through a familiar kind of audio vibration pattern in the air I can transfer the audio signal we identify as "mushroom" to you, and some image of a mushroom will inevitably form in your head. Thats audio signals shifting into the visual spectrum right there, especially for those who are more visually oriented/good at visualizing.

Its really no wonder many think that plant and/or endogenous tryptamines and beta carbolines probably played a role in the development of higher thinking and language...especially when taking this into account along with all of their other impacts on creativity/thought/imagination/etc

 

[jamie]

doesnt everyone think that way?
I find it odd that numbers dont have colors and days dont have personalities to some people. Weird.

 

[Global]

doesnt everyone think that way?
I find it odd that numbers dont have colors and days dont have personalities to some people. Weird.

You guys can take the "synesthesia battery" to test yourself for true synesthesia or not. A lot of people think that they have synesthesia, but it turns out to merely be strong associations which will fail in spades in the synesthesia battery.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

Number/spacial synesthsia is actually a fairly common type of synesthesia (as synestheias go, of course), the thing is, it's not one of the 'sexy' variates like sound/color, or touch/emotion that gets people feeling all artsy.

How are you at mental arithmetic? There's neurological evidence that people who perceive numbers to exist in a certain space with distance relationships between them are better at conceptualizing arithmetic (and sometimes, more abstract forms of algebra and calculus).

 

[Macre]

Maths was never my favourite subject at school. Not because I was no good at it, but because I found a lot of it was common sense (at least I thought that at the time). I find it pretty easy, I'm no super human calculator, but I find it easy to track my way along a sum or two.

I was thinking of getting back into some kind of mathematics, learning for fun, as a brain exercise. I have a new appreciation of such things, that wasn't present in my younger days.

One thing I do find I have, is an excellent long term memory. I've been reading a little bit about special sequence synesthesia, and a good long term memory is something that people with SSS can have.

Peace

Macre

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

I would say "go for it," by all means.

This is party my bias, I'm a math major :d, but I sincerely feel that everyone's lives would be much better if they spent time wrestling with abstract concepts like calculus or algebra.

If you have a good grounding in maths up through calculus, I highly recommend starting with basic linear algebra. That was one of the most interesting courses I ever took. If Trig is your thing, I highly recommend spending some really quality time with the Cauchy–Schwarz inequality (which is where we get the cosine function from).

Blessings
~ND

 

[The Neural]

I mean think about it. When we communicate I can have an image in my head..say an image of a mushroom. Through a familiar kind of audio vibration pattern in the air I can transfer the audio signal we identify as "mushroom" to you, and some image of a mushroom will inevitably form in your head. Thats audio signals shifting into the visual spectrum right there, especially for those who are more visually oriented/good at visualizing.

What you are describing is association. You voluntarily remember the taste of the mushroom when you see it, and even if it is involuntary, you still get the taste of that particular mushroom which is recalled from memory of taste. Synesthetics taste very different tastes than the stimulus they are exposed to, although consistent (e.g. A Rothko painting can induce a "mustardy" taste, while Pollock may induce a watermelon taste). Another differentiation is that this trail of memory you describe happens sequentially, while a synesthetic will experience 2 (or more) sensory representations at the exact same time. This is due to additional neuronal connections between 2 (or more) sensory domains that most people have dropped from a very young age.

Suffice to say, synesthetics can have a much more vivid psychedelic experience, or an extremely hellish one.

 

[universecannon]

I mean think about it. When we communicate I can have an image in my head..say an image of a mushroom. Through a familiar kind of audio vibration pattern in the air I can transfer the audio signal we identify as "mushroom" to you, and some image of a mushroom will inevitably form in your head. Thats audio signals shifting into the visual spectrum right there, especially for those who are more visually oriented/good at visualizing.

What you are describing is association. You voluntarily remember the taste of the mushroom when you see it, and even if it is involuntary, you still get the taste of that particular mushroom which is recalled from memory of taste. Synesthetics taste very different tastes than the stimulus they are exposed to, although consistent (e.g. A Rothko painting can induce a "mustardy" taste, while Pollock may induce a watermelon taste). Another differentiation is that this trail of memory you describe happens sequentially, while a synesthetic will experience 2 (or more) sensory representations at the exact same time. This is due to additional neuronal connections between 2 (or more) sensory domains that most people have dropped from a very young age.

Suffice to say, synesthetics can have a much more vivid psychedelic experience, or an extremely hellish one.

I've had synesthesia many times both on drugs and "sober" so i didn't mean to imply that its exactly like how it is experienced there, or that there are no differences.

Association undoubtedly plays a huge part in what i described, sorry for not clarifying. But even still, what i described is a translation from one sensory modality to another. And if you are "hearing" these words in your head as your read them on the computer, then that to is a translation from one sensory modality to another. Just because association is key to the process of languages development and growth doesn't mean the whole thing is totally unrelated to synesthesia, i think. The ability to easily translate senses into each other would be very useful when learning to build an association between an audio signal and an inner perception of a visual representation of that signal.

 

[Global]

I mean think about it. When we communicate I can have an image in my head..say an image of a mushroom. Through a familiar kind of audio vibration pattern in the air I can transfer the audio signal we identify as "mushroom" to you, and some image of a mushroom will inevitably form in your head. Thats audio signals shifting into the visual spectrum right there, especially for those who are more visually oriented/good at visualizing.

What you are describing is association. You voluntarily remember the taste of the mushroom when you see it, and even if it is involuntary, you still get the taste of that particular mushroom which is recalled from memory of taste. Synesthetics taste very different tastes than the stimulus they are exposed to, although consistent (e.g. A Rothko painting can induce a "mustardy" taste, while Pollock may induce a watermelon taste). Another differentiation is that this trail of memory you describe happens sequentially, while a synesthetic will experience 2 (or more) sensory representations at the exact same time. This is due to additional neuronal connections between 2 (or more) sensory domains that most people have dropped from a very young age.

Suffice to say, synesthetics can have a much more vivid psychedelic experience, or an extremely hellish one.

I've had synesthesia many times both on drugs and "sober" so i didn't mean to imply that its exactly like how it is experienced there, or that there are no differences.

Association undoubtedly plays a huge part in what i described, sorry for not clarifying. But even still, what i described is a translation from one sensory modality to another. And if you are "hearing" these words in your head as your read them on the computer, then that to is a translation from one sensory modality to another. Just because association is key to the process of languages development and growth doesn't mean the whole thing is totally unrelated to synesthesia, i think. The ability to easily translate senses into each other would be very useful when learning to build an association between an audio signal and an inner perception of a visual representation of that signal.

I see what you're saying UC, but if we say that everybody is a synesthete, it sort of renders the whole word and concept as somewhat meaningless. When you're hearing that word, even though you're converting it into an "image" in your imagination, it's really not the same at all as visual perception which from my understanding is the experience of the synesthete. It's not a strong mental image so much as a genuine, inevitable and involuntary perception. When you talk about these associations with words, I wouldn't really count the imagination as another sense modality. It certainly isn't in the classical sense (pardon the pun).

From my own personal life, I'll give you an example. Sometimes when I'm listening to music, although I don't have the best sense of pitch, if a piece is in G major, a lot of times I will get this strong light blue association. But it's just that - an association, not a perception. It's not guaranteed to happen, and I'm not even guaranteed to get the key right 100% of the time as an actual color-music synesthete would through their involuntary perception of the corresponding colors. Why I have such associations I'm unsure, but it can be inconsistent to say the least, and I find it to be more linked to memory and the imagination than a sense modality mix up.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

Global: everyone is kind of a synesthete though, aren't they? English (and most other languages) are replete with synesthetic turns of phrase. (Eg: that was a sharp cheese, or a dark story). We naturally cross our senses all the time, it's just that it's common enough that we never comment on it.

I have often wondered if I qualify as a synesthetic, but I really don't know if what I experience is the perception of qualia, or just strong associations. Sounds (think of synthesizers, with sawtooth waves, and sine waves and square waves) often seem to 'have' colors, and these can be very consistent.

At the same time, however, I notice that my color perception of a song tends to match the colors (but not the patterns) on the album cover the song came on, so go figure.

It's probably not 'true' synesthesia, but it's fun, certianly.

Blessings
~ND

 

[Global]

We do have these semi-synesthetic kinds of words in English like "sharp cheddar" and the like. Though when an actual synesthete describes something with a sharp taste, it has nothing to do with the way we commonly use "sharp" with taste.

 

[The Neural]

Very interesting posts altogether!

To UC, you know, you may be right in that language, as a wide network of functions, is linked to many of our senses. That by itself may render it a type of synesthesia, but technically speaking, to differentiate between the majority and synesthetes, we need to draw the line when it comes to having sensory associations that are beyond the common ones. However, the major key word in your post is "inner" visual representation. Synesthetes claim the visual representation of an audio or tactile signal happens in their field of vision, or sometimes in their periphery. Totally different from an inner mental representation (I do "feel" a brown earthy colour when listening to Tom Waits, or a yellow colour when I taste mustard; that is association). If I indeed saw a geometric pattern overlapping my visual field like an extra alpha layer whenever I heard a sound, then I would definitely be in possession of extra striatal connections to my visual cortices.

Global described it nicely, and I do think that it is related to memory and paired associations that simply help us remember things easier, depending on the saliency of the stimulus (how important it is or not).

Nathanial, you are right that we do cross senses, but definitely less and with a different mechanism than the synesthetes. I do find cheddar to be sharper than brie, but I do not see a geometric sharp shape in my visual field, nor do I literally feel a sharp pinch as a vibrotactile sensation on my skin (which is what synesthetes claim). Even though certain auditory shapes give you the sense of colour and they are consistent, you have to literally see the colours overlapping your perception, not only an inner mental representation, to classify you as a synesthete.

I do agree it's fun, and even funnier during a psychedelic experience when our transduction processes get truly, synesthetically mixed up
More fun though, is looking at Kadinsky's paintings, and imagining how awesomely weird his perception must have been.

 

[Global]

We're obviously well familiar to an extent with the synesthetic experience from psychedelics with DMT in particular. I need not elaborate too much on the experience except to note that even with the powerful, undeniably vivid synesthesia that we experience from DMT is inconsistent. For us, when in hyperspace, we may hear certain sounds or notes in music and visually perceive different colors. The color-note pairs however are not guaranteed and for the most part will not remain consistent from experience to experience whereas for a music-color synesthete, if a D# is blue, it's always blue. For a different synesthete Bb might be that same blue, and all his colors are consistent to him. We are not afforded that luxury. It seems semi-arbitrary in our case. It is for this reason that we cannot make a functional use for our synesthesia in the same way that they can (i.e. for memory, pitch consolidation, etc...) because they can rely on the notion that their synesthesia is going and has been the same this day as it will the next as it has been probably since as early as they can remember.

 

[The Neural]

^ exactly.

In a simple organic description, synesthetes experience synesthesia through additional direct neuronal connections from a sensory domain to other(s), while non-synesthetes experience psychedelic synesthesia through indirect pathways, primarily by having their sensory signals interpreted also elsewhere than their original target domain; not because there are extra connections, but because the signal followed a longer and more complex route and/or exhibited different signaling parameters (change in the electrical potential/chemical distribution) due to being affected by the results of a particular substance.

Just like Global explained, non-synesthetes will have each time different "synesthetic" experiences during a trip, while synesthetes can have an overwhelmingly extreme trip due to having their own synesthesia, along with synesthesia caused by the substance. This may hint to their psychedelic experience manifesting its complexity exponentially (e.g. 1 sensory input -> 2+ sensory representations, and each representation (2+) can be translated to even more for each of their additional connections).

I'm almost jealous. Would be wonderful to invent a way to bridge such connections safely to non-synesthete humans.

 

[universecannon]

Interesting points and I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying, but i think we'll probably just have to agree to disagree when it comes to regarding it as a sort of synesthesia- since really a lot of it comes down to our differing experiences, how we view and define things differently, etc. Like the imagination for example (whatever that is!)

"When you're hearing that word, even though you're converting it into an "image" in your imagination, it's really not the same at all as visual perception which from my understanding is the experience of the synesthete."

One thing i should have clarified is that, to me, these two things are not so different as most people assume. They're just experienced to different degrees of intensity along spectrum. Let me try and explain this...When you hear the word "chair" and subsequently visualize a chair, most people assume that this inner visualization is totally unrelated to the act of perceiving an actual image of a chair (whether it be a vision, as with a synesthete, or externally driven).

But while on trymtaines and beta carbolines, the imagination spectrum shifts away from feeling like its something "imagined" to feeling undoubtedly like its something perceived. Many times i've had the experience of literally witnessing the imagination manifest more fully into the full on visual/sensory spectrum while in a trance, sometimes to the point where it seems just as real if not more than perceptions in this ordinary consciousness. With practice, it is possible to perceive this in its full blown form while fully conscious on high doses of harmalas alone. Some people, especially skilled psychedelic artists, are so good at visualizing that they literally can "see" the vision in their head while sober to the point where the distinction between "perceiving it" and "just imagining it vividly" becomes totally arbitrary. This is also something that begins to occur during sleep deprivation, as well as prolonged dark rooming (which involves an increase in these pineal MAOI such as pinoline etc). This shift from imagining something to actually seeing/experiencing it full blown has also happened to me while meditating...especially while on melatonin.

In fact one study (there was a thread on this at the end of last year) found that, contrary to sobriety, while on ayahuasca there was no significant difference between the brain activity of a person seeing a picture of an object and the brain activity of a person visualizing that same object. The visual cortex and brain perceived both equally as objects of perception. Now, this isn't to say that those in the study actual "saw" in their minds what they were visualizing with the same realness that they did when viewing the picture of it. But like I said, there is a broad spectrum of experience and IME this is definitely possible- especially with practice.

This also all relates somewhat to people with photographic memories... like savant stephen wiltshire for example, who can get one glimpse at a foreign city from a helicopter and then reproduce the entire thing including every single building, window, etc, all scaled down perfectly on a giant piece of paper.

 

[Elpo]

I think what UC is referrng to is this passgage of Dennis McKenna about how abstractions in our language have come about, and might look like a form of synesthesia:

"Spoken or written language is a synesthetic activity that takes place effortlessly and automatically in the process of understanding a language. In speaking, the vocal apparatus produces small mouth noises, small puffs or explosions of air that are inherently meaningless. But because we have learned the language, we all participate in the consensu that certain meaningless noises are associated with inner, visualized images or symbols that, as cognitive constructs are imbued with meaning. These images and symbols, seen by the mmind's eye and associated with symbolic import, supply the "meaning" to various vocal expressions. [...] Is this not also synesthesia?" The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss - Dennis Mckenna.

What I think he means by this and what UC is reffering to is that this is a form of synesthesia so embedded in our being that we do not even recognise it as such.

In fact one study (there was a thread on this at the end of last year) found that, contrary to sobriety, while on ayahuasca there was no significant difference between the brain activity of a person seeing a picture of an object and the brain activity of a person visualizing that same object.

Actually i saw a study about this exact same phneomena even without the use of Ayahuasca. Where the same neuron pattern in the brain was activated in a subject who actually saw the chair and one who just imagined the chair. I think science is now realising that the external world and internal world are not that different to our brain.

 

[The Neural]

Using fMRI or EEG, the power of inference is extremely small. Even if the same localised region receives blood under both tasks (viewing of a picture, viewing a scene), that does not mean that the higher level cognitive process is based on the exact same mechanism. Not at all. This is the major caveat of brain imaging studies, reverse inference.

The difference for language, is that all these perceptions of meaning and whatnot, happen in a serial order of a few hundreds of milliseconds, sequentially :

First come the air waves, interpreted as noise, deciphered into language, associated with memories, interpreted as meaning, etc.)

While a synesthetic has an extra stage in this order: First come the air waves, interpreted as noise + interpreted as visual input (and both signals continue along their feedforward loops).

Anyway, we can indeed agree to disagree, but remember, bottom line, I kinda get your point on language. The thing that distinguishes it (my subjective opinion) is the source. Language takes place in our brain that spreads the signals "synesthetically" to many senses, so the source is the language centers / auditory information. For me, synesthesia would have its source from an external stimulus, so our brain would not input the information in one form (auditory / language) and then distribute it to many, but would instead perceive one sensory input originally with many senses than the one.

 

[changalvia]

Monday, Wednsday, Friday and Sunday are curved

Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday are sharp

Monday is Gay and so is wednsday

Friday and sunday are relaxed days

Thursday and saturday are ultra cool days

Tuesday is pink and I'm okay with that, Monday and Wednsday being gay too

The week is an odd bunch of characters