I dislike the "DMT is responsible for your dreams" theory

[obliguhl]

...because i think that it is unfounded speculation, driven by people who believe in the illusion, that dreaming could be anything like the dmt experience. I do not know where they are getting this idea from. Perhaps they "want to believe" because they're too afraid to try dmt, or they're conditioned to believe that "drugs are bad" ? I don't know....

The point i want to make is: I have to rethink my position. I've had two experience (one that i just remembered yesterday) were i was in a state right between sleep and awake and had very colorful, distinct Tryptamine/DMT like visuals...there was no doubt - i was tripping ...NOT dreaming.

I also heard these strange buzzing sounds with pressure on my ears.

I would like to evaluate, if there has been similiar experiences.

 

[rOm]

Well, some dreams have very casual overtone for me, and most if not all of the time I do remember them (maybe that's where lie the truth, in the hidden memories of the black box), they are nothing compared to DMT experience, however one was a bit like one of them though not as magical, plus I might as well have done some dissociative or something back in the days.

 

[soulfood]

I can't sleep for shit on DMT...

end of

 

[Entropymancer]

The point i want to make is: I have to rethink my position. I've had two experience (one that i just remembered yesterday) were i was in a state right between sleep and awake and had very colorful, distinct Tryptamine/DMT like visuals...there was no doubt - i was tripping ...NOT dreaming.

I experienced this twice in the months after I first tried DMT. Like you describe, it happened during or just before the transition into sleep. I heard the carrierwave and saw the kaleidoscope fractal veil, but did not break through in either of these non-drug-induced experiences.

I never had any experiences like that prior to trying DMT. It is my suspicion that this is more like a flash-back, that the mind would be unable to replicate that mental state without having been there before.

I think it's also important to notice that these experiences are drastically different from the dreaming state or normal hypnogogic phenomena. That stark difference seems to argue against DMT being involved in normal dreaming or hypnogogia.

 

[wolvz]

There is a state of dreaming called the d-state or desynchronized state, it is where you get hallucinoid dreaming, but it is also very easily forgotten about and it only last about 15 minutes. I believe during this state, its possible that small amounts of DMT could be released in order to create this vivid and wild dream state. This state is also known as REM sleep, or rapid eye movement. REM is completely different from all other states of dreaming. It is also known as paradoxical sleep because during REM neuron activity is very similar to when you are awake.

More information can be found in these places:

REM - Clicky
Dream States - Clicky

Hope this proves helpful

 

[Entropymancer]

But do you really think that REM dreaming bears any significant resemblance to the DMT experience? They really seem entirely dissimilar in my own experience.

 

[jamie]

...because i think that it is unfounded speculation, driven by people who believe in the illusion, that dreaming could be anything like the dmt experience. I do not know where they are getting this idea from. Perhaps they "want to believe" because they're too afraid to try dmt, or they're conditioned to believe that "drugs are bad" ? I don't know....

The point i want to make is: I have to rethink my position. I've had two experience (one that i just remembered yesterday) were i was in a state right between sleep and awake and had very colorful, distinct Tryptamine/DMT like visuals...there was no doubt - i was tripping ...NOT dreaming.

I also heard these strange buzzing sounds with pressure on my ears.

I would like to evaluate, if there has been similiar experiences.

yes I have many many times been in that state. Usually I will wake up in the middle of the night around 2am or 3am and be fully immersed in a very DMT/tryptamine like state. There are full on color visions etc just like with DMT. I dunno what that is about...

Due to these experiences though I tend to gravitate towards the idea that either endogenous DMT, or some other similar trytamine or beta carboline/tryptamine combination is being released in the brain durring certain states. It has made me 100% believe at least the the stories that you can read about in reguards to dark room retreats.

I did also have these things happen to me before taking any psychedelics.

..and no..it is not so much like normal dreaming. It is different.

 

[joedirt]

I actually find the tail end of ALL dmt experiences to be almost exactly like dreams...on fast forward.

I think I tend to side with Fractal. I suspect it's a combination of tryptamines and actual pathway's that are used. But it wouldn't surprise me one bit if DMT was involved in the process. I don't however think that when you dream you get anything like the size of a dose you get form vaping 20-40 mgs...

Another reason I side with it is there is evidence that the n-methyl transferase enzymes necessary for n-methylating tryptamines are present in the Spinal cord which is part of the CNS and has direct access to the brain via the cerebral spinal fluid. DMT may not be made in the pineal, but there is a good chance that it is made in the spinal coord... Of course this certainly doesn't mean it's involved in dreaming...it just lends a little more weight to the idea that it does actually function as an endogenous neurotransmitter.

 

[The Day Tripper]

Its all experiential theory as far as I'm concerned, but that only applies to the people who actually have had DMT experiences and can relate it to what they may be experiencing in a dream.

I think that most of the story behind this lies with Joe Rogan. Hes made some pretty pretentious statements regarding DMT and dreams. I can not speak for his experience, but imo people believe what he says because hes an intellectual and has experience with psychedelics and DMT where they may have not. Just listen to what he has to say about DMT in some of his podcasts and you will see why it makes gullible people think DMT is produced when you dream.

Until they can scientifically measure DMT or other indoles, either trypts or beta carbolines, its just a meme that was started by ??? and perpetuated in part by Joe Rogan. People want to believe it because its coincidental. BUT its never been proven that the pineal makes DMT when you sleep.

I think its actually melatonin, or another indole produced naturally in the body and not DMT. In conjunction with beta carbolines, or a coctail of indoles, melatonin could be psychedelic. But until its proven, I'm no more right than the people who are CONVINCED that DMT is released when you sleep and propagate that meme as fact.

The least they could do is be skeptical until science has been done in regard to the topic.

Edit: found the link-

And this:

A Proposed Mechanism for the Visions of Dream Sleep

 

[Hyperdimensional Cuttlefish]

Back in my bad-old-days, I used to have "nightmares" that, in retrospect were almost identical in form to breakthrough and sub-breakthrough DMT trips. Take that for what it's worth. This was at least 10 yrs prior to trying hallucinogens, especially DMT.

 

[GobblinTorch]

Fractal:

I did also have these things happen to me before taking any psychedelics.

I tend to agree. My first Psychedelic experience was when I was 18. Now being 22 and having a not insignificant number of tryptamines ingested over those 4 years I must say that some of the dreams I remember from ages 13-17 had the same level of colour/abstractness that I would associate with Tryptamine CEV's.

I can't say this with absolute certainty, but I can't say it with absolute uncertainty either.

 

[benzyme]

said this before..

consider: 5HT receptor signaling is supposedly inhibited during REM sleep, DMT is a 5HT receptor ligand.

 

[blue_velvet]

...i was in a state right between sleep and awake and had very colorful, distinct Tryptamine/DMT like visuals...there was no doubt - i was tripping ...NOT dreaming.

I too have experienced this. I've never had a dream whilst asleep that could be compared to any tryptamine. This phenomenon, however, is very much like low doses of DMT. It happens to me when I am shocked awake by some external stimulus and lasts as long as a minute. I would guess it has more to do with waking up than dreaming or sleeping.

 

[wolvz]

Well surely its not proven that DMT has any effect on Dreams, but that doesn't necessarily mean its not involved or at least maybe slightly. And just because someone's REM sleep isnt like their DMT experiences, doesn't mean another persons experience will be the same. I at least know one thing that is in common between REM and DMT. Rapid eye movement.. its what REM stands for and it also occurs at least with me.. on DMT. In fact, I once hypothesized that the reason you see fractals or shapes when in pre-breakthrough or post-breakthrough state is because of your eyes vibrating so quickly that it multiplies light. And if DMT has taught me anything, it would be that anything is possible... so its good to have an open mind on things such as this.

 

[blue_velvet]

I have regained interest in this particular subject after an experience I had last night:

I fell asleep somewhere between 9:45 and 10:00 p.m. I woke up to the sound of my cat on the bedside table at about 11:10 to 11:15. I removed the cat in annoyance and laid back down. At this point it struck me that something peculiar was happening. I was experiencing what were not only very noticeable visuals, but they were distinctively DMT-like in nature. Anyone familiar with the visual effects of tryptamines can distinguish them from those of other phenomena. There was no mistaking the the aesthetic, the movement, the quality. These floating patterns lasted about 30-45 seconds before breaking apart (much like coming down from DMT) into the general static of the waking state.

As I said, I awoke at approximately 11:10. This would put me, in the moments preceding the experience, in the deep sleep stage (3rd or 4th, depending on who you ask) of non-REM sleep, REM sleep generally occurring at about 1.5 hours after t=0. Make of this what you will. People are naturally drawn to REM as it elicits the most fantastic, eidetic dreams. However, what strikes me is that dreaming (though more mundane) also occurs during NREM sleep, strongest in stage 3 (or 4). Perhaps the research can disprove endogenous DMT playing a role in dreaming, I don't know. Even so, I'm still wondering why this happened. I am also still entertaining the idea that it has something to do with waking up.

 

[nen888]

..i recall chemist Jace Callaway hypothesising that dream visuals may be driven by endogenous Harmalas, perhaps modulated by tryptamines..harmala visions can be dream like..
also, i vaguely recall a notion that DMT trip brain patterns resembled deep REM sleep..this is way deeper than ordinary dreaming, and is usually not recalled 'afterwards'..
.

 

[proto-pax]

said this before..

consider: 5HT receptor signaling is supposedly inhibited during REM sleep, DMT is a 5HT receptor ligand.

 

[nen888]

..i'm vaguely recalling PET scan data showing similarity of brain states..i know that one of DMT's physiological actions is inducing smooth muscle tremor, this usually naturally happens during REM...

 

[Dreamwalker]

I have to admit the visions you get from your dreams are very different from DMT visions. I do think its strange that if I do smoke DMT my dreams for the next week or so are usually much more vivid and recall is through the roof. Its strange to me because I know the body metabolizes the molecule rather quickly and its not like its all still in my body for up to a week.

Perhaps it does some work on the brain allowing for more endogenous DMT to be released for some time afterward? That is if DMT is even responsible for your dreams at all.

Last night I took a dose of harmine sublingually. I pretty much never take harmalas without DMT but for whatever reason last night I did. WOW!!! not only did I have many very vivid dreams with incredible recall I actually became lucid for a while which has only happened to me a couple times before in my whole life.

I love the dreams I have where I can fly. Last night when I realized I was dreaming I flew all over the place!! What an amazing feeling to be actually able to control it. It really felt like I was awake and conscious yet I knew i was dreaming. I wish I were able to become lucid more often, it's amazing.

Now I don't know for sure if it was the harmine responsible for my dreams last night but I'm definitely going to experiment with it before bed again sometime.

 

[benzyme]

:coughacetylcholinecough: