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My friend Jees,

Have at me brother! I love your willingness to dream these spaces and ask yourself and me questions, to investigate in a lively and open way. Even to challenge! Wonderful.

I think I can hear you. I think I understand what you are getting at. And I don't want to dodge too easily the heart of the challenge.

If I might say it in my own words, the one whole of life-death is a paradox in which we don't know but in which we are. And there is a danger in my emphasis on life, on the passions, on emotion that I might be looking at the highlights, that I might be going to the "fight-flight" and missing out on its relationship to "rest and digest."

Maybe there are as many ways of dying as living? Goethe's "die to live" seems delightful to me, arising from his encounter with Hafiz and our mad Sufi friends. Intezam might tell us something here.

I love how you ended with, "there is no choice" and that you started with "you are already dead". I like that one as well. One way I play with that is, "We are already in the Bardo."

But back to death. I experience many different ways of falling asleep, based on what is in my mind stream in the waking state. I'm curious about that. What is this deep sleep? What is shallow sleep? Some subtle thread of awareness remains even in deep sleep, but it has no object, so it is not hardly noticed. Can I shift my field of noticing enough to register that objectless knowing? Is that akin to death?

Part of my earlier question was to investigate not life, but the "not knowing of life." And this could be a bit of a dodge of the challenge. But I think it fits. I am investigating in my own life, the "not knowing" of life or death. With the only difference that I do have some immediate experience of what can loosely be called "living" but perhaps it is premature to give it the label "life" and oppose it to death? And what of sleep? Is that what mercy changed death into so that we might know it?

My immediate experience is something I can investigate, be curious about. And investigation throws me into to "not knowing" and being curious at the same time. To hold off on certainty but to remain curious does "enliven" my experience, for lack of a better word.

Is all this just Bardo training? Am I learning to swim in ambiguous spaces? I am swimming in ambiguity.

My experience is richer for it. And my appreciation grows. Thanks for your thoughts.

<blockquote data-quote="drfaust" data-source="post: 3765951" data-attributes="member: 30990">My friend Jees,Have at me brother! I love your willingness to dream these spaces and ask yourself and me questions, to investigate in a lively and open way. Even to challenge! Wonderful.I think I can hear you. I think I understand what you are getting at. And I don&#039;t want to dodge too easily the heart of the challenge.If I might say it in my own words, the one whole of life-death is a paradox in which we don&#039;t know but in which we are. And there is a danger in my emphasis on life, on the passions, on emotion that I might be looking at the highlights, that I might be going to the &quot;fight-flight&quot; and missing out on its relationship to &quot;rest and digest.&quot;Maybe there are as many ways of dying as living? Goethe&#039;s &quot;die to live&quot; seems delightful to me, arising from his encounter with Hafiz and our mad Sufi friends. Intezam might tell us something here.I love how you ended with, &quot;there is no choice&quot; and that you started with &quot;you are already dead&quot;. I like that one as well. One way I play with that is, &quot;We are already in the Bardo.&quot;But back to death. I experience many different ways of falling asleep, based on what is in my mind stream in the waking state. I&#039;m curious about that. What is this deep sleep? What is shallow sleep? Some subtle thread of awareness remains even in deep sleep, but it has no object, so it is not hardly noticed. Can I shift my field of noticing enough to register that objectless knowing? Is that akin to death?Part of my earlier question was to investigate not life, but the &quot;not knowing of life.&quot; And this could be a bit of a dodge of the challenge. But I think it fits. I am investigating in my own life, the &quot;not knowing&quot; of life or death. With the only difference that I do have some immediate experience of what can loosely be called &quot;living&quot; but perhaps it is premature to give it the label &quot;life&quot; and oppose it to death? And what of sleep? Is that what mercy changed death into so that we might know it?My immediate experience is something I can investigate, be curious about. And investigation throws me into to &quot;not knowing&quot; and being curious at the same time. To hold off on certainty but to remain curious does &quot;enliven&quot; my experience, for lack of a better word.Is all this just Bardo training? Am I learning to swim in ambiguous spaces? I am swimming in ambiguity.My experience is richer for it. And my appreciation grows. Thanks for your thoughts.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="drfaust, post: 3765951, member: 30990"] My friend Jees, Have at me brother! I love your willingness to dream these spaces and ask yourself and me questions, to investigate in a lively and open way. Even to challenge! Wonderful. I think I can hear you. I think I understand what you are getting at. And I don't want to dodge too easily the heart of the challenge. If I might say it in my own words, the one whole of life-death is a paradox in which we don't know but in which we are. And there is a danger in my emphasis on life, on the passions, on emotion that I might be looking at the highlights, that I might be going to the "fight-flight" and missing out on its relationship to "rest and digest." Maybe there are as many ways of dying as living? Goethe's "die to live" seems delightful to me, arising from his encounter with Hafiz and our mad Sufi friends. Intezam might tell us something here. I love how you ended with, "there is no choice" and that you started with "you are already dead". I like that one as well. One way I play with that is, "We are already in the Bardo." But back to death. I experience many different ways of falling asleep, based on what is in my mind stream in the waking state. I'm curious about that. What is this deep sleep? What is shallow sleep? Some subtle thread of awareness remains even in deep sleep, but it has no object, so it is not hardly noticed. Can I shift my field of noticing enough to register that objectless knowing? Is that akin to death? Part of my earlier question was to investigate not life, but the "not knowing of life." And this could be a bit of a dodge of the challenge. But I think it fits. I am investigating in my own life, the "not knowing" of life or death. With the only difference that I do have some immediate experience of what can loosely be called "living" but perhaps it is premature to give it the label "life" and oppose it to death? And what of sleep? Is that what mercy changed death into so that we might know it? My immediate experience is something I can investigate, be curious about. And investigation throws me into to "not knowing" and being curious at the same time. To hold off on certainty but to remain curious does "enliven" my experience, for lack of a better word. Is all this just Bardo training? Am I learning to swim in ambiguous spaces? I am swimming in ambiguity. My experience is richer for it. And my appreciation grows. Thanks for your thoughts. [/QUOTE]