Is

[Ident]

Do we know what anything is?

Can you say with certainty that anything is what it appears to be?

Our world is built from symbols, linguistic and semantic forms which we have all learned to understand since birth as a way of interacting with our surroundings. Without them, the world as we know it would not exist. These symbols have allowed for the transmission of information through the ages, yet we have all experienced things which are literally "beyond words". We can try our best to explain what we experienced but, and in particular when it comes to the psyhedelic experience, we're painfully aware that our symbol systems/words are an innacurate expression of what we actually witnessed.

The limitations of language become more apparent once you realise how the world appears to be structured. That's why I ask if we can ever really say what anything is? Or are we only ever placing our own maps over a territory which we, in our current evolutionary state, are unable to comprehend? Is our understanding of the world based on a 'best fit solution'?

Who knows, but I look forward to hearing what you think and discussing this further.....

 

[Kartikay]

In a way, I disagree. I think that we can accurately explain anything with the right words. Some members on this site are able to write trip reports that pull me into hyperspace with them, while others seem so dull that I question their legitimacy.

I do at least agree that if we are to try and explain these experiences to someone who had never used psychedelics, they would not have even a chance of understanding. I had one of my friends (who is helping me prepare my hyperspace fuel) read a sub-breakthrough trip report and he refused to believe that the author was not exaggerating! And that just a sub-breakthrough report. What this tells me is that it is not just the language that prevents us from understanding, as this particular report was very vivid and made perfect sense to me. The people themselves are a limiting factor as well. Their experiences limit their comprehension.

Another example: When I first heard JZ Knight speak, I thought: "Wow this woman is batshit crazy." That was before using psychedelics. After using psychedelics, I heard her again one day and was shocked to see that while she was still batshit crazy, she was in essence describing a common psychedelic or mystical experience.

So to answer your question directly, about whether it is due to "our current evolutionary state," I would have to say no. It is not evolution, but it is our experience. My children, should I ever have any, will not inherently know the psychedelic mysteries until they experience it themselves, even though I understand it when I conceive them. Memories don't pass through with our genes to our children.

Now, some sociologists believe that there is such thing as cultural evolution. That is, the culture of regions of the world evolve separate from the species. In that sense, I would say yes, it is our current evolutionary state that prevents us from understanding. Until the psychedelic experience is made into a sort of "coming-of-age ceremony" or initiation to adulthood, then the general populace will always think we are batshit crazy. I can't blame them. It sounds absurd until you've been there.

 

[Virola78]

Yes I think we are using a best fit map. Like a child expanding its horizon when growing up. Individuals and collectives are doing the same thing, one way or the other.

Beyond words..?

It cannot even be imagined from the normal state of consciousness. I always realize this when drifting away away. Poetry does best when trying to grasp the strange paradoxical nature of what lies deep within. Indeed painfully inaccurate still.

 

[Ident]

Kartikay, I actually agree with you completely there. It's easier to express certain things to someone who's shared your experience, there's a mutual understanding of the territory being described. At the same time, you could apply that thinking to a conversation between two people like 69ron and Infundibulum, two people well versed in chemistry who's discussions leave me baffled at times! It's a matter of mutual understanding again and I think that can be applied to any field from theology to computer programming.

Your point about the impact of someone else's trip reports are, in my opinion anyway, more to do with the skill of the writer and their ability to convey their experience. This is something that's always been there and one look on here or Erowid shows that some people are very talented writers, while others give it their best effort but don't manage to connect in the same way. A shared understanding of accepted terms used to describe a psychdelic experience also helps, the thread about conflicts of definition on the Enigmaticus thread is a good example of that.

The experiences of people like Knight and other modern 'mystics' are similar to the psychedelic experience, but to the mind of someone unfamiliar with these wonderful substances it sounds like, as Aleister Crowley put it, the ravings of a disorganised mind. The difference is that most of them have experienced that shift in consciousness without chemical influence. I've heard it said that the only difference between a mystic and a schitzophrenic is that the mystic control when he/she enters those peculiar realms of consciousness. As for us psychonauts, the difference is that we've got the keys to the door!

I think that the conflict of opinion between us occurs because you misinterpreted what I initially said. Not that you interpreted it wrongly, it's my responsibility as the person transmitting the information to ensure that I correctly explain myself and make my meanings clear. You read the words I write and comprehend them according to your understanding of the subject in hand, in this case the inadequacy of language. While that was a part of what I was talking about I was also pointing to the idea that words are not the thing that they describe.

As for evolution, I again should have made myself clearer since I tend to use that word in a general sense to refer to how we progress overall as a species. Cultural evolution would probably be more accurate actually. The point about not passing on your experience of psychdelics to your children is partly true. Yes, you won't (or at least it's highly unlikely that you will) pass any sort of chemical or genetic information to them. However, the influence of psychdelics will certainly alter the way in which you think and act in the long term and, as a parent myself here, this does make you consider how you raise your kids and encourage them to question the world around them.

Some good point folks, certainly plenty to think about anyway!! Cheers!