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Islam and spirituality

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BundleflowerPower

BundleflowerPower

Rising Star
So lately I've been learning about Islam from a spiritual perspective, as relating to the self. I know a girl in Pakistan and a dude in the UK, who are both spiritual awakened and Muslim, and through them teaching and guiding me, I've leaned that Islam seems to be highly evolved in these matters. The ideas of the ego, higher self and lower self, the true self are quite remarkable. Some of the things in the Quran and Hadith, as well as commentaries on them, are like reading alchemical writings. Once again, this seems to confirm that all of these religions are based on the same thing, the transformation of the self, even if the mainstream of the three monotheistic faiths has become ego dominated and drifted from their original intent. But I'm very fascinated by the focus on self transformation in Islam, and the teachings on ego and how to transcend it (jihad al nafs). And btw, it doesn't seem to be only Sufis who are so mystical about it, but Islam in general seems to be much more inner self directed than anything I ever learned growing up going to church and catholic school, even if many Muslims have lost the original intent. In fact a lot of the jihad talk in the Quran seems to be about inner struggle, as opposed to outward war, although that's included as well, but reguardless, it seems to me, from what I've learned so far, that one would complete the inner transformation before considering fighting any sort of war in the outer would. It's really fascinating to me. And btw, I share a deep connection with the girl in Pakistan, and we have similar, almost exactly the same kinds of experiences concerning our inner worlds, both of our kundalini is alive, and I found it fascinating that she is able to square such experiences with a religion that seems so ridged to an outsider, but once again, life surprises, and once again demonstrates the fact that all is one thing.

Here's an interesting article

 
..Terence McKennna said that it was Idres Shah (Sufi) who tipped Gordon Wasson off about psilocybin mushrooms and suggested to look in Mexico for living traditions (as Sufi sects are too secretive).. and of course sufis use trance inducing dance rituals..

I think much spirituality continued in the middle east quietly as 'Islam' in the same way Haitian voudou was 'catholic' on the surface..
true Islam is I think more diverse than often seen
 
Definatly nen.

Here's something I posted on Facebook the other day about the ego:

So I've been going pretty deep into myself lately, exploring the ego, how it works an so on. The past couple of days I've been taking Syrian rue, which boosts my ability to visualize the self. One thing I've found, and Syrian rue really helped out in this, is that ego is basically a hall of mirrors, some kind of matrix. Another thing I've found is that when I come to some new insight or even better, actually visualize its mechanics, or overtake it mentally, the ego seems to become perplexed, then there's a lag time until it seems to know what's going on again. So that made me wonder, is ego even aware of what it's doing in real time, or does it simply set up multiple illusions with backups, like some kind of switchboard operator with all the lines seemingly going no where, which once you catch up to it it becomes flustered (and btw, I call it flustered because when my kundalini first awoke, my ego used to fluster me and that's the word it used, or perhaps I was the ego then and it was spirit that flustered me).

One thing I'd like your thoughts on, is whether there's a finite number of illusions ego can create, or if it goes on to infinity. Because if it's a finite number then theoretically ego can in fact be killed off. Another think I wonder about is what is the intent behind the ego, is it really some sort of nefarious entity which seeks to separate, or is it simply a tool of the universe to teach separation.


And responses from a Muslim friend of mine:


I have to say, this is perhaps one of the best articulations of delusional nature of the ego i have read. You have word for word describe what the Quran calls gharoor which is rooted in the word for pride, ego and delusion.
As well as describing the fitrah.
The intent which seeks separation is the ego itself but also ones soul / self which is shaped by the path of ones life. This path (rah) - which is rooted in the word ruh (ones spirit/soul) is either driven to serve the ego (aka nafs), the egos of others or God and the fitrah of ones soul.
The intent inevitably shapes your motivation which can tamper the ego but not remove it completely unless it is replaced and overpowered in ourselves to ones fitra.

Though you highlighting intent involved is quite remarkable. I have to say. I often say the ego is a useful tool in the sea of egos that is society - as long as you don't become a tool of it.
At this stage it is intent that shapes how the soul controls the ego and you are bang on right. I just realised this whilst reading and then assessing my ego.
Its perhaps why we are often different with different people. People that are in touch with their soul and fitrah, such as yourself, even with me, bring out the best of that and likewise with egoes.
Its why in the islamic tradition, theres a major significance added to who you keep as company and being wise in choosing the company you keep as it inevitably shapes your path and thereby your own soul and ofcourse your control of your ego.
 
More from that discussion:

It is quite remarkable in this. The arabic language is what they call a root language where every word has layers upon layers of meaning and remains coherent and on topic to describe the nature of the aspect the word is meant to elucidate.

Take the word insaan, which means human, is quite an interesting word on its own and once you look at its root and then you reflect upon the world, it describes excellently the nature of humans morally and existentially.

The root word for insaan are 2, one nisya, which means "to forget" and the other nusiya, which means "to be loved" "and "to relate".

Together it highlights the nature of humans, which is also present throughout the islamic discourse, is that humans by their nature are creatures of forgetfulness and understand things through compassion which draws them closer, which within the context of islam means to draw them closer to the truth that is embedded within their fitrah.

If we look at the world, no matter how evil a person is we find this to be true.

Their evil action is either a result of forgetfulness or mal-intent and are reminded of their heedlessness through compassion and their innate desire to be close. Which is why even a tyrannical leader can be seen as though to be a child when he is with his children. This fitrah is of course, at battle with the ego as you highlight at times.

This is why the idea of "reminding people" is present throughout islamic discourse and ethics to the point, in reminding others, you are reminding yourself.

The word is also related to the word "naseeha" which means "to advise".

Battery was about to die hence me posting quickly.

This is just the word insaan. Words for other aspect of existence which includes charity and economics are even more mind blowing in how they describe the nature of man ethically and what that thing means in existence to which it refers, which when we reflect upon the world, is very apt. Its one of the reasons as a person once said who first read the Quran as reported by nouman ali khan is that "when you read the Quran, it is not you who reads it. The Quran, reads, you."
 
There's no ego, it's a delusion that consists of grasping onto the five skandhas. Like when you combine water and mud but see only brown mixture, when you mix the five skandhas, you get the illusion of an ego or a self.
 
Sherlockian_Holmes said:
There's no ego, it's a delusion that consists of grasping onto the five skandhas. Like when you combine water and mud but see only brown mixture, when you mix the five skandhas, you get the illusion of an ego or a self.
Click to expand...

Well, I'd say that true once one reaches a certain point. But consider a person who is totally identified with ego, for all intents and purposes they are their ego. Once we reach this level we know it's an illusion, yet it's a persistent one. In Islam it seems as if the ego is the same thing as what one might call a lower self. And that's another thing about ego, different people seem to call different things ego. Some people use freuds definition and claim that the ego is an essential part of being human. I'd call that your current self. Then some (including me) view it as lower self basically. But I agree that's it's an illusion, that becomes obvious once you get into discovering all the ways it operates. To me it seems like some kind of software that runs in the brain, it's like a program and forget sort of thing where it's doesn't really seem aware of what's going on. I think it's our darkness, an darkness is unawareness, so once the light hits it it simply dissolves. But one thing that amazes me is the way it can reform somehow, although it seems as if it can transformed, like in alchemy, it's base the metal lead.

So I feel like it depends on exactly what one labels as ego. And labels btw seem like an ego thing, which I feel like can be used to dissolve it as well. Because the ego seems to like to label everything, and it wants to know it for everything, so one cool exercise is to simply tell the ego "could be," when you catch it trying to be certain of things it can't possibly be certain of. Tell it could be enough times and it dissolves as well, with no need for entheogens, although I did learn that trick while taking p. harmala every day for a while. But it works, and I wasnt sure at first if it would continue to work after that first time (which was a mystical expirience basically), or if it was just a one time thing, but it does. It's basically dissolving it with the logic of embracing uncertainty.
 
BundleflowerPower said:
Sherlockian_Holmes said:
There's no ego, it's a delusion that consists of grasping onto the five skandhas. Like when you combine water and mud but see only brown mixture, when you mix the five skandhas, you get the illusion of an ego or a self.
Click to expand...

Well, I'd say that true once one reaches a certain point. But consider a person who is totally identified with ego, for all intents and purposes they are their ego. Once we reach this level we know it's an illusion, yet it's a persistent one. In Islam it seems as if the ego is the same thing as what one might call a lower self. And that's another thing about ego, different people seem to call different things ego. Some people use freuds definition and claim that the ego is an essential part of being human. I'd call that your current self. Then some (including me) view it as lower self basically. But I agree that's it's an illusion, that becomes obvious once you get into discovering all the ways it operates. To me it seems like some kind of software that runs in the brain, it's like a program and forget sort of thing where it's doesn't really seem aware of what's going on. I think it's our darkness, an darkness is unawareness, so once the light hits it it simply dissolves. But one thing that amazes me is the way it can reform somehow, although it seems as if it can transformed, like in alchemy, it's base the metal lead.

So I feel like it depends on exactly what one labels as ego. And labels btw seem like an ego thing, which I feel like can be used to dissolve it as well. Because the ego seems to like to label everything, and it wants to know it for everything, so one cool exercise is to simply tell the ego "could be," when you catch it trying to be certain of things it can't possibly be certain of. Tell it could be enough times and it dissolves as well, with no need for entheogens, although I did learn that trick while taking p. harmala every day for a while. But it works, and I wasnt sure at first if it would continue to work after that first time (which was a mystical expirience basically), or if it was just a one time thing, but it does. It's basically dissolving it with the logic of embracing uncertainty.
Click to expand...
Insightfull analysis. And i'm gonna try this 'could be'-exercise of yours.
 
BundleflowerPower said:
Sherlockian_Holmes said:
There's no ego, it's a delusion that consists of grasping onto the five skandhas. Like when you combine water and mud but see only brown mixture, when you mix the five skandhas, you get the illusion of an ego or a self.
Click to expand...

Well, I'd say that true once one reaches a certain point. But consider a person who is totally identified with ego, for all intents and purposes they are their ego. Once we reach this level we know it's an illusion, yet it's a persistent one. In Islam it seems as if the ego is the same thing as what one might call a lower self. And that's another thing about ego, different people seem to call different things ego. Some people use freuds definition and claim that the ego is an essential part of being human. I'd call that your current self. Then some (including me) view it as lower self basically. But I agree that's it's an illusion, that becomes obvious once you get into discovering all the ways it operates. To me it seems like some kind of software that runs in the brain, it's like a program and forget sort of thing where it's doesn't really seem aware of what's going on. I think it's our darkness, an darkness is unawareness, so once the light hits it it simply dissolves. But one thing that amazes me is the way it can reform somehow, although it seems as if it can transformed, like in alchemy, it's base the metal lead.

So I feel like it depends on exactly what one labels as ego. And labels btw seem like an ego thing, which I feel like can be used to dissolve it as well. Because the ego seems to like to label everything, and it wants to know it for everything, so one cool exercise is to simply tell the ego "could be," when you catch it trying to be certain of things it can't possibly be certain of. Tell it could be enough times and it dissolves as well, with no need for entheogens, although I did learn that trick while taking p. harmala every day for a while. But it works, and I wasnt sure at first if it would continue to work after that first time (which was a mystical expirience basically), or if it was just a one time thing, but it does. It's basically dissolving it with the logic of embracing uncertainty.
Click to expand...

Do you know what the five skandhas are? I don't really care what psychology says about the ego, because it's not relevant. But what the Buddha has shared as supreme wisdom, he has described the "little self/ego" to consists of grasping/clinging onto the five skandhas, which are ultimately empty and void of self.

Skandhas are clusters/aggregates of "things/objects" that is clung to and taken to be a self. These are form, sensation, perception, mental formations and consciousness. If you want a clear description of the five skandhas, I suggest reading the Shurangama Sutra: City of 10,000 Buddhas - The Shurangama Sutra and reading about the the five skandhas here: Buddhism Five Skandhas
 
Yes I have an understanding of this. It's basically referring to grasping after objects, people, whatever keeps one from existing in the moment.

And I don't really care what psychology says about the ego either, because I'm not talking about ego from some theoretical perspective, but rather from my own experience. Just pointing out that different people call different things ego.

And while I have a healthy respect for Buddhism, and especially Buddhist tantra, I made this thread with the intent to talk about Islam in a spiritual sense, which if one really studies, one would find quite a few parallels to Buddhism, at least when it comes to getting past the ego.
 
BundleflowerPower said:
Yes I have an understanding of this. It's basically referring to grasping after objects, people, whatever keeps one from existing in the moment.

And I don't really care what psychology says about the ego either, because I'm not talking about ego from some theoretical perspective, but rather from my own experience. Just pointing out that different people call different things ego.

And while I have a healthy respect for Buddhism, and especially Buddhist tantra, I made this thread with the intent to talk about Islam in a spiritual sense, which if one really studies, one would find quite a few parallels to Buddhism, at least when it comes to getting past the ego.
Click to expand...

I agree completely. Islam was in fact my first Path. It's certainly a beautiful one, with very rich symbolism.

It's a very misunderstood religion unfortunately, like most Abrahamic faiths have become these days.

-------------------

To continue with the Islam theme ... there's a poetic description of a genuine samadhi experience in the writings of Abu Yazid, who was the grandson of a Zoroastrian. He was the founder of the ecstatic ('drunken') school of Sufism of which wis similar to devotional bhakti Hinduism and ecstatic Christian cultivation.

Abu Yazid poetically described a journey to Heaven, in imitation of the Prophet Mohammed's ascension, which captured the imagination of later writers but which incorporates some characteristics of an advanced samadhi experience:

Abu Yazid related as follows,

I gazed upon God with the eye of certainty after that He had advanced me to the degree of independence from all creatures, and illumined me with His light, revealing to me the wonders of His secrets and manifesting to me the grandeur of His He-ness.

Then from God I gazed upon myself, and considered well the secrets of my self. My light was darkness beside the light of God; my grandeur shrank to very meanness beside God's grandeur; my glory beside God's glory became but vainglory. There was purity, here all was foulness.

When I looked again, I saw my being by God's light. I realized that my glory was of His grandeur and glory. Whatsoever the eye of my physical body perceived, it perceived through Him. I gazed with the eye of justice and reality; all my worship proceeded from God, not from, and I had supposed that it was I who worshipped Him.

I said, "Lord God, what is this?"

He said, "All that I am, and none other than I."

Then He stitched up my eye, not to be the means of seeing and so that I might not see, and He instructed the gaze of my eye in the root of the matter, the He-ness or Himself. He annihilated me from my own being, and made me to be everlasting through his own everlastingness, and He glorified me. He disclosed to me His own Selfhood, unjostled by my own existence. So God, the one Truth, increased in me reality. Through God I gazed on God, and I beheld God in reality.

There I dwelt a while, and found repose. I stopped up the ear of striving; I withdrew the tongue of yearning into the throat of disappointment. I abandoned acquired knowledge, and removed the interference of the soul that bids to evil. I remained still for a space, without any instrument, and with the hand of God's grace I swept superfluities from the pathway of root principles."
 
I had a chance to visit Iran last year at a time not too long after my first entheogen experience, the beginning of my relationship with psychedelics and a deepening of my journey into spirituality. Being that Iran is (or claims to be ) an Islamic Republic, I had my first opportunity to experience a great deal of Islamic culture and tradition. I couldn't help to notice the symbolism related to Islam, the art and architecture in the mosques and their relation to my experiences with psychedelics and spirituality.

Although I don't have a deep study of any religions, my impression so far echoes yours OP. It seems most religions are based on the same thing, even if they aren't now. I do have a feeling many religions have been corrupted over time and used as means to profit and/or control people.

From what I see, the original ideas behind Islam seem to be a little more intact and accessible then some of the other main stream religions if someone wishes to study it. Of course if you want to just listen to someone else's version of it, you are likely to miss the point. Kind of like the difference of listening to someones explanation of a DMT trip and having the experience yourself. Of course I don't think Islam is any different from the other religions in that it has been/is corrupted and used for profit and control.
 
BundleflowerPower said:
So lately I've been learning about Islam from a spiritual perspective, as relating to the self. I know a girl in Pakistan and a dude in the UK, who are both spiritual awakened and Muslim, and through them teaching and guiding me, I've leaned that Islam seems to be highly evolved in these matters. The ideas of the ego, higher self and lower self, the true self are quite remarkable. Some of the things in the Quran and Hadith, as well as commentaries on them, are like reading alchemical writings. Once again, this seems to confirm that all of these religions are based on the same thing, the transformation of the self, even if the mainstream of the three monotheistic faiths has become ego dominated and drifted from their original intent. But I'm very fascinated by the focus on self transformation in Islam, and the teachings on ego and how to transcend it (jihad al nafs). And btw, it doesn't seem to be only Sufis who are so mystical about it, but Islam in general seems to be much more inner self directed than anything I ever learned growing up going to church and catholic school, even if many Muslims have lost the original intent. In fact a lot of the jihad talk in the Quran seems to be about inner struggle, as opposed to outward war, although that's included as well, but reguardless, it seems to me, from what I've learned so far, that one would complete the inner transformation before considering fighting any sort of war in the outer would. It's really fascinating to me. And btw, I share a deep connection with the girl in Pakistan, and we have similar, almost exactly the same kinds of experiences concerning our inner worlds, both of our kundalini is alive, and I found it fascinating that she is able to square such experiences with a religion that seems so ridged to an outsider, but once again, life surprises, and once again demonstrates the fact that all is one thing.

Here's an interesting article

Click to expand...

There is a concept in Sufism which mimics psychedelic awakening, it particularly reminds me of the DMT flash.

Fanaa (Arabic: فناء‎‎ fanāʾ ) is the Islamic term for "passing away" or "annihilation" (of the self).[1] Fana means "to die before one dies" and represents a breaking down of the individual ego and a recognition of the fundamental unity of God, creation, and the individual self.[1] Persons having entered this enlightened state obtain awareness of the intrinsic unity (tawhid) between Allah and all that exists, including the individual's mind. It is coupled conceptually with baqaa, subsistence, which is the state of pure consciousness of and abidance in God. -Wikipedia
Click to expand...

I think all spiritual traditions touch on true spirituality, though most traditions have been turned into institutions, corrupted by dogma and texts, and turned into a political hierarchy and power structures which are antithetical to any true spiritual concepts, most religions have also been seized by governments and ruling powers as a means of controlling populations... however, All the religions still have bits and pieces of non-corrupted spiritual gnosis scattered in and burried throughout the detritus and garbage which has ultimately consumed these faiths and become their basis.



-eg
 
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