Kavalactones extraction. Will DMT extraction techniques work?

[nitrogenaztec]

So I'm wondering about extracting kavalactones from Kava. This is to fix my alcohol addiction.

I have some kava powder. There are traditional guides to extracting it. I haven't tried these yet, but I'm assuming they will work if followed properly. Apparantly you need 1200mg kavalactones spread over 6-4 doses spread over 2 hours to get a similar "drunk" feeling.

Sorry if this is the wrong forum. I can repost in whichever is the "right" one.

So apparantly, to get a dose, you have to knead the kava powder for 15 minutes. I have some problems with my wrists right now... i wasn't able to knead it yet.

I'm wondering if there is an easier way to extract it.

The people on this forum are incredibly good at bio-chem and using it for plant-based substances. Perhaps some advice?

So what I know about kavalactones, is that they are a sticky/waxy substance, that doesn't like being dissolved in water. In fact you have to "Work it" into the water (by squeezing the wet powder) in which case it just floats there, not dissolved. So its a very mechanical process... not chemical. I've also heard SOME people say that adding coconut oil to the water helps extraction, while others said it doesn't help. (this lack of clarity doesnt do me any favours!)

I tried alcohol extraction but that failed... I tried blending and that failed too. I got a slightly improved relaxation and better sleep (Great!) but nothing like being drunk/happy.

Do you think using similar techniques like using on DMT will help?
For example will freeze/thaw cycles work?

Could NaOH be used on kava powder? Will it destroy the kavalactones or cause any other harms? I'm thinking if the plant cells were totally destroyed but the kavalactones were mostly intact... the substances shoudl be free to float around. I'm just pondering of course. I'd need to follow all safety proceedures for the hazardous NaOH, same as with DMT extraction.

Kava is something people drink rather than smoke. So adding NaOH and having to neutralise it before drinking seems... a concern.

Freeze/thaw however can't really go wrong. Its safe and cheap

Just some thoughts. I'm trying to find something that works with me. I wonder if using oils can help dissolve the kavalactones if combined with freeze/thaw or NaOH.

Thanks anyone who can help.

 

[Transform]

No - kavalactones are not alkaloids, so A/B extraction techniques will not work in the same way. Extremes of pH may even destroy these molecules. Your best hope would be to obtain a concentrated resin by extracting with a solvent like acetone or ethyl acetate - as I see you've been unsuccessful with alcohol - and evaporating. You can then mix that into coconut cream or a similar edible fatty emulsion.

[Combining kava and alcohol ingestion is not recommended - there's a risk of liver damage.]

If you don't want to use a solvent at all you could try using ultrasound with the coconut milk, or maybe passing the root/coconut mixture through an electric mincer a few times. It all depends what equipment you have within reach.

I would guess that the traditional method is also inaccessible to you unless you chew the root yourself. A heavy pestle and mortar would serve as a useful utensil here.

Just bear in mind, kavalactones are oil-soluble which is somewhat at odds with the water requirements for effective cellular cryolysis. Freezing may help, but the remaining water may become a hindrance once preparing the thawed material. Perhaps you could try hitting the frozen root with a hammer too, or putting it in a sturdy electric herb grinder.

What exactly did yoy do for the unsuccessful attempt at alcohol extraction? That's a little surprising, but not all substances will be soluble in a given solvent. Kavalactones are quite "resiny" so you may well need something less polar. It would be worth looking at patents and the scientific literature for more specific information on solvent extraction of kavalactones from Piper methysticum root.

 

[nitrogenaztec]

No - kavalactones are not alkaloids, so A/B extraction techniques will not work in the same way. Extremes of pH may even destroy these molecules. Your best hope would be to obtain a concentrated resin by extracting with a solvent like acetone or ethyl acetate - as I see you've been unsuccessful with alcohol - and evaporating. You can then mix that into coconut cream or a similar edible fatty emulsion.

[Combining kava and alcohol ingestion is not recommended - there's a risk of liver damage.]

If you don't want to use a solvent at all you could try using ultrasound with the coconut milk, or maybe passing the root/coconut mixture through an electric mincer a few times. It all depends what equipment you have within reach.

I would guess that the traditional method is also inaccessible to you unless you chew the root yourself. A heavy pestle and mortar would serve as a useful utensil here.

Just bear in mind, kavalactones are oil-soluble which is somewhat at odds with the water requirements for effective cellular cryolysis. Freezing may help, but the remaining water may become a hindrance once preparing the thawed material. Perhaps you could try hitting the frozen root with a hammer too, or putting it in a sturdy electric herb grinder.

What exactly did yoy do for the unsuccessful attempt at alcohol extraction? That's a little surprising, but not all substances will be soluble in a given solvent. Kavalactones are quite "resiny" so you may well need something less polar. It would be worth looking at patents and the scientific literature for more specific information on solvent extraction of kavalactones from Piper methysticum root.

Thanks for the informative reply.

The alcohol extraction basically it "felt bad in my stomach" and did nothing for me. Nothing good anyhow. Either of them apart was fine... but together "just felt bad".

i did a bit of research, and i heard that "The best extraction solvent" was water + acetone. Each dissovled different compounds. However it still seems a bit risky to me. Mainly that the "compound profile" is different. For example, acetone will dissolve some of the compounds much stronger than water, but others much weaker.

Why would I need to hit a frozen root haha? I have kava powder and also... I would just wait for the powder to thaw so theres no ice left.

My thoughts was that "as long as the kavalactones arent trapped inside the cells it should be OK". Is this wrong? Does it need to be physically separated from the powder, in a water-suspension, to be absorbed by the body?

 

[Transform]

Obviously if you've powdered root the hammering would be superfluous
What do you mean the aqueous acetone would be "risky"?

And are you saying you drank the ethanol tincture, or simply swallowed the resulting resin? Taking just the resin would be about as effective as swallowing a blob of epoxy. It needs to be dispersed in something like an oily emulsion.

You could try making an analogue of one of the cannabis butter recipes - kava butter could then be stirred into a warm drink. The oil dissolves the kavalactones and helps with absorption (I tend to take kava extract capsules with full fat milk and that is definitely effective, more so than just water).

Another thing to consider is that if you do make a solvent extract, evaporate it down onto a carrier substance like cornstarch or microcrystalline cellulose. This makes easier to handle and you don't have to deal with a large blob of resin, either for dispersing into a drink or ingesting as is. Pharmacological formulation is an art in itself, as well as a branch of science.

For a culinary analogy, look into how creamy salad dressings are made. You have tons of options here.

 

[nitrogenaztec]

thanks for the response. For anyone interested in this thread... I found some more interesting info here:

Kava Preparation - Kava Prep Using Centrifugal Separation

Last year I bought a sonic cleaner to experiment as a kava extraction device. I haven't really done much with it but now I'm getting the itch to play with it. In my constant quest to be as lazy as I possibly can be, I devised an (untested) way to prep my kava. Here are the steps to do so: Step...

kavaforums.com

"I am most interested in testing out the bioavailability of kava processed into a liposomal fluid, which can be done with an ultrasonic bath. It is commonly done now with vitamin c, turmeric, and various other plant medicines to drastically increase absorption. Unfortunately I can't make that a priority right now, but it is surely the next great kitchen experiment on the list."

...

"Mixing them together. Ascorbic acid is a reducing agent. That means it can turn a double bond into a single bond, among other things. So theoretically it could actually change one of the double bonds in kavain into a single bond, giving DHK, or Methysticin into DHM. (And yes kavain is "double-bonded", and DHK is "single-bonded", not the other way around) It could also possibly attack the double bond on the lactone ring, and turn the molecule into something that is not a kavalactone (in other words, it could destroy it)

Now, how efficient these reactions might be, I actually have no idea: it might convert and/or destroy all, or some, or a tiny amount of the kavain, depending on various factors."


They also agreed with you that Sonic Extraction is one way to go.

...

Assuming that they are spending all this time on Sonic Extraction or CO2 extraction, I can probably assume they already thought of NaOH and that it doest work (although perhaps not, but unlikely... sometimes very simple techniques go undiscovered for a long time).

I wonder why no one is mentioning freeze-thaw cycles though? Sonic Extraction supposedly breaks down cell walls... so why not break down cell walls in another way.

 

[Mylu]

Hey bro, you're overthinking it. Treat it more like ganja and less like changa in your mind. All the best kava extracts I've sampled were simple CO2 set ups....probably not too different from hash making rigs maybe with some finer mesh filters going on since you're working with pulverized root (which is quite chalky) instead of ground up flower.

The resulting extract is a nice kavalactone rich paste --Kava Hash--that you can straight stick in your gums (or I suppose place directly on teeth for dental pain) or process into gummies/candies


I always just took a lil pinky dabber licksie when drinking a few shells to get an extra rootedness going. Only ever seen it over on Big Island. Kava community out there is legendary--try and find Kava Dave's famous Rhino Dart if you crave a nice strong glycerin tincture for a decent price. I can source bottles as well over here---think theyre like 25 per or probably can het bulk for under 20 a pop straight from the farm.


____

Yeah so a quick search turned up these guys: Kava Extract - Kavalactone - CO2 vs Alcohol vs Tincture

Looks like the CO2 extract gets upwards up 70 percent (pure and solvent free) and an alcohol extract reaches 80....but tastes like garbage IMHO and youre poisoning yourself with ethanol every time you dose

 

[Mylu]

Also I might add that you might want to research GABA supplementation, ketamine and iboga therapy for addiction as opposed to kava which is more of an anti anxiety /pain med (thought alcohol is quite similar, so if you are self medicating with the alcohol to relax mind/body then kava can be a good carry over to mitigate symptoms while addressing addiction to toxic substances)

Would love to hear more about your addiction struggles because I have my own substance abuse patterns as well that I've been observing...cheers

To Health!